X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: cobb@pop.fas.harvard.edu
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:52:59 -0500
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, maps-l@listserv.uga.edu
From: David Cobb <cobb@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>

Dear Colleagues -

After several years of discussing the possibilities, we are pleased to announce that the Harvard Map Collection has begun to catalog its antiquarian map collection. This weekend (April 2-3) we will be remodeling the interior of the Map Collection to create a more efficient processing area so that we can have more room to review and catalog the maps. We will, of course, concentrate our cataloging efforts initially on the Boston and New England regions. Our plans are to quickly move into the America's, North America, and colonial America collections as well. Initial sampling for some of these maps reveals that we will be able to take advantage of the excellent cataloging already completed at the Library of Congress and other research library institutions.

As with any such project, it is inevitable that duplicates will be identified. We are also finding many duplicates between our atlas collection and those of the flat map collection. Since so many of the atlases are difficult to use and our patrons always want the area usually found in the "gutter" it is had been decided that these maps would be far more valuable to our users if they were flat. Since we have no intention of selling the atlases, thereby the atlas value is inconsequential, it will be far easier to rid ourselves of the limits of those volumes. Therefore, it will be easier to "debind" and catalog them as flat maps and they are far easier to copy that way as well.

Since we have begun our cataloging this seems an appropos time to complete two projects at the same time and make our collection more accessible and much easier for us to file. We look forward to keeping everyone aware of our progress.

David Cobb

*************************************************************************** David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440 Harvard College Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138                             HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS ****************************************

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Originating-IP: [24.119.227.39]
X-Originating-Email: [rhekier@hotmail.com]
X-Sender: rhekier@hotmail.com
From: "Ron Hekier" <rhekier@hotmail.com>
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: RE: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:35:34 +0000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2004 00:35:35.0023 (UTC) FILETIME=[6985A7F0:01C4184A]
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Is it common for an academic institution to "debind" atlases?  I am a relative new cartophile; my understanding has been that the academic community is scornful of "debinding" or "book-breaking", a practice usually performed by commercial dealers.
My initial instinct is that atlases should, whenever possible, be left whole.
I look forward to discussion of this topic to further educate myself.

Regards,
Ron Hekier




>From: David Cobb Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, 
>maps-l@listserv.uga.edu Subject: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project 
>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:52:59 -0500
>
>
>Dear Colleagues -
>
>After several years of discussing the possibilities, we are pleased to 
>announce that the Harvard Map Collection has begun to catalog its 
>antiquarian map collection. This weekend (April 2-3) we will be remodeling 
>the interior of the Map Collection to create a more efficient processing 
>area so that we can have more room to review and catalog the maps. We will, 
>of course, concentrate our cataloging efforts initially on the Boston and 
>New England regions. Our plans are to quickly move into the America's, 
>North America, and colonial America collections as well. Initial sampling 
>for some of these maps reveals that we will be able to take advantage of 
>the excellent cataloging already completed at the Library of Congress and 
>other research library institutions.
>
>As with any such project, it is inevitable that duplicates will be 
>identified. We are also finding many duplicates between our atlas 
>collection and those of the flat map collection. Since so many of the 
>atlases are difficult to use and our patrons always want the area usually 
>found in the "gutter" it is had been decided that these maps would be far 
>more valuable to our users if they were flat. Since we have no intention of 
>selling the atlases, thereby the atlas value is inconsequential, it will be 
>far easier to rid ourselves of the limits of those volumes. Therefore, it 
>will be easier to "debind" and catalog them as flat maps and they are far 
>easier to copy that way as well.
>
>Since we have begun our cataloging this seems an appropos time to complete 
>two projects at the same time and make our collection more accessible and 
>much easier for us to file. We look forward to keeping everyone aware of 
>our progress.
>
>David Cobb
>
>*************************************************************************** 
>David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard 
>Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440 Harvard College 
>Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 
>02138                             HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps 
>************************** VERITAS ****************************************
>
>_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: 
>E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty 
>of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and 
>opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not 
>necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of 
>Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List 
>Information: http://www.maphist.info

_________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:52:52 -0800
From: "Duane F. Marble" <marble.1@osu.edu>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax; CDonDemand-Dom)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
X-Spam-Rating: mail.oregonfast.net 0/1/N
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.3 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
I must say that I agree with Ron's view of the situation. And what of possible duplicates produced
by the "debinding" activity? Will they be sold?

Ron Hekier wrote:

> Is it common for an academic institution to "debind" atlases? I am a 
> relative new cartophile; my understanding has been that the academic 
> community is scornful of "debinding" or "book-breaking", a practice 
> usually performed by commercial dealers.
> My initial instinct is that atlases should, whenever possible, be left 
> whole.
> I look forward to discussion of this topic to further educate myself.
>
> Regards,
> Ron Hekier
>
>
>
>
>> From: David Cobb Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, 
>> maps-l@listserv.uga.edu Subject: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging 
>> Project Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:52:59 -0500
>>
>>
>> Dear Colleagues -
>>
>> After several years of discussing the possibilities, we are pleased 
>> to announce that the Harvard Map Collection has begun to catalog its 
>> antiquarian map collection. This weekend (April 2-3) we will be 
>> remodeling the interior of the Map Collection to create a more 
>> efficient processing area so that we can have more room to review and 
>> catalog the maps. We will, of course, concentrate our cataloging 
>> efforts initially on the Boston and New England regions. Our plans 
>> are to quickly move into the America's, North America, and colonial 
>> America collections as well. Initial sampling for some of these maps 
>> reveals that we will be able to take advantage of the excellent 
>> cataloging already completed at the Library of Congress and other 
>> research library institutions.
>>
>> As with any such project, it is inevitable that duplicates will be 
>> identified. We are also finding many duplicates between our atlas 
>> collection and those of the flat map collection. Since so many of the 
>> atlases are difficult to use and our patrons always want the area 
>> usually found in the "gutter" it is had been decided that these maps 
>> would be far more valuable to our users if they were flat. Since we 
>> have no intention of selling the atlases, thereby the atlas value is 
>> inconsequential, it will be far easier to rid ourselves of the limits 
>> of those volumes. Therefore, it will be easier to "debind" and 
>> catalog them as flat maps and they are far easier to copy that way as 
>> well.
>>
>> Since we have begun our cataloging this seems an appropos time to 
>> complete two projects at the same time and make our collection more 
>> accessible and much easier for us to file. We look forward to keeping 
>> everyone aware of our progress.
>>
>> David Cobb
>>
>> *************************************************************************** 
>> David A. Cobb Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection FAX 
>> 617.496.0440 Harvard College Library Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu 
>> Cambridge, MA 02138 HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps 
>> ************************** VERITAS 
>> ****************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________ 
>> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted 
>> by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The 
>> statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the 
>> author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of 
>> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility 
>> for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – 
> FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
> the views of the author.
> List Information: http://www.maphist.info
>
>

-- 
Dr. Duane F. Marble		Email:  marble.1@osu.edu 2226 Primrose Lane		Telephone: (541) 902-8837 Florence, OR  97439		Cell:  (541) 991-1730

     "The collective noun for anecdotes is not 'data."



_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.0.1 February 07, 2003
From: Dirk.Veltkamp@tourism.tas.gov.au
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:19:40 +1000
X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on DMTTLTN/TOURISM(Release 6.0.2CF1|June 9, 2003) at 02/04/2004
 11:19:43 AM,
	Serialize complete at 02/04/2004 11:19:43 AM
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.8 required=5.0 

<x-html>

<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear David Cobb and Maphisters</font> <br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Will the Harvard Map Collection do all of its &quot;debinding&quot; on April 1?</font> <br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dirk Veltkamp</font> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Duane F. Marble&quot; &lt;marble.1@osu.edu&gt;</b> </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl</font> <p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">02/04/2004 10:52 AM</font> <table border>
<tr valign=top>
<td bgcolor=white>
<div align=center><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to<br> maphist@geog.uu.nl</font></div></table> <br>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div> <td valign=top><font size=1 face="sans-serif">maphist@geog.uu.nl</font> <tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div> <td valign=top>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div> <td valign=top><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>I must say that I agree with Ron's view of the situation.
And what of <br>
possible duplicates produced<br>
by the &quot;debinding&quot; activity? Will they be sold?<br> <br>
Ron Hekier wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Is it common for an academic institution to &quot;debind&quot; atlases?
I am a <br>
&gt; relative new cartophile; my understanding has been that the academic <br>
&gt; community is scornful of &quot;debinding&quot; or &quot;book-breaking&quot;, a practice <br>
&gt; usually performed by commercial dealers.<br> &gt; My initial instinct is that atlases should, whenever possible, be left <br>
&gt; whole.<br>
&gt; I look forward to discussion of this topic to further educate myself.<br> &gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Ron Hekier<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; From: David Cobb Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, <br>
&gt;&gt; maps-l@listserv.uga.edu Subject: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging <br>
&gt;&gt; Project Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:52:59 -0500<br> &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Dear Colleagues -<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; After several years of discussing the possibilities, we are pleased <br>
&gt;&gt; to announce that the Harvard Map Collection has begun to catalog its <br>
&gt;&gt; antiquarian map collection. This weekend (April 2-3) we will be <br>
&gt;&gt; remodeling the interior of the Map Collection to create a more <br>
&gt;&gt; efficient processing area so that we can have more room to review and <br>
&gt;&gt; catalog the maps. We will, of course, concentrate our cataloging <br>
&gt;&gt; efforts initially on the Boston and New England regions. Our plans <br>
&gt;&gt; are to quickly move into the America's, North America, and colonial <br>
&gt;&gt; America collections as well. Initial sampling for some of these maps <br>
&gt;&gt; reveals that we will be able to take advantage of the excellent <br>
&gt;&gt; cataloging already completed at the Library of Congress and other <br>
&gt;&gt; research library institutions.<br> &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; As with any such project, it is inevitable that duplicates will be <br>
&gt;&gt; identified. We are also finding many duplicates between our atlas <br>
&gt;&gt; collection and those of the flat map collection. Since so many of the <br>
&gt;&gt; atlases are difficult to use and our patrons always want the area <br>
&gt;&gt; usually found in the &quot;gutter&quot; it is had been decided that these maps <br>
&gt;&gt; would be far more valuable to our users if they were flat. Since we <br>
&gt;&gt; have no intention of selling the atlases, thereby the atlas value is <br>
&gt;&gt; inconsequential, it will be far easier to rid ourselves of the limits <br>
&gt;&gt; of those volumes. Therefore, it will be easier to &quot;debind&quot; and <br>
&gt;&gt; catalog them as flat maps and they are far easier to copy that way as <br>
&gt;&gt; well.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Since we have begun our cataloging this seems an appropos time to <br>
&gt;&gt; complete two projects at the same time and make our collection more <br>
&gt;&gt; accessible and much easier for us to file. We look forward to keeping <br>
&gt;&gt; everyone aware of our progress.<br> &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; David Cobb<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; *************************************************************************** <br>
&gt;&gt; David A. Cobb Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection FAX <br> &gt;&gt; 617.496.0440 Harvard College Library Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu <br>
&gt;&gt; Cambridge, MA 02138 HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps <br> &gt;&gt; ************************** VERITAS <br> &gt;&gt; ****************************************<br> &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________________________ <br>
&gt;&gt; MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted <br>
&gt;&gt; by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The <br>
&gt;&gt; statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the <br>
&gt;&gt; author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of <br>
&gt;&gt; Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility <br>
&gt;&gt; for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info<br> &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _________________________________________________________________<br> &gt; MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page &#8211; <br>
&gt; FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/<br> &gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________________________<br> &gt; MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography<br> &gt; hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.<br> &gt; The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of<br> &gt; the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of<br>
&gt; Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for<br>
&gt; the views of the author.<br>
&gt; List Information: http://www.maphist.info<br> &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Dr. Duane F. Marble &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Email: &nbsp;marble.1@osu.edu<br> 2226 Primrose Lane &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Telephone: (541) 902-8837<br> Florence, OR &nbsp;97439 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Cell: &nbsp;(541) 991-1730<br> <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The collective noun for anecdotes is not 'data.&quot;<br> <br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________________________<br> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography<br> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.<br> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of<br> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of<br> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for<br> the views of the author.<br>
List Information: http://www.maphist.info<br> </tt></font>
<br>
</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:26:59 -0900
From: Dee Longenbaugh <deelong@alaska.com>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, maps-l@listserv.uga.edu
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.3 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
>Somehow I am thinking that the date today might have something to do 
>with the breaking of duplicate atlases at Harvard.
	Is this a flat assertion?
	Dee
the doubter

>
>After several years of discussing the possibilities, we are pleased 
>to announce that the Harvard Map Collection has begun to catalog its 
>antiquarian map collection. This weekend (April 2-3) we will be 
>remodeling the interior of the Map Collection to create a more 
>efficient processing area so that we can have more room to review 
>and catalog the maps. We will, of course, concentrate our cataloging 
>efforts initially on the Boston and New England regions. Our plans 
>are to quickly move into the America's, North America, and colonial 
>America collections as well. Initial sampling for some of these maps 
>reveals that we will be able to take advantage of the excellent 
>cataloging already completed at the Library of Congress and other 
>research library institutions.
>
>As with any such project, it is inevitable that duplicates will be 
>identified. We are also finding many duplicates between our atlas 
>collection and those of the flat map collection. Since so many of 
>the atlases are difficult to use and our patrons always want the 
>area usually found in the "gutter" it is had been decided that these 
>maps would be far more valuable to our users if they were flat. 
>Since we have no intention of selling the atlases, thereby the atlas 
>value is inconsequential, it will be far easier to rid ourselves of 
>the limits of those volumes. Therefore, it will be easier to 
>"debind" and catalog them as flat maps and they are far easier to 
>copy that way as well.
>
>Since we have begun our cataloging this seems an appropos time to 
>complete two projects at the same time and make our collection more 
>accessible and much easier for us to file. We look forward to 
>keeping everyone aware of our progress.
>
>David Cobb
>
>***************************************************************************
>David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417
>Harvard Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440
>Harvard College Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu
>Cambridge, MA 02138                             HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps
>************************** VERITAS ****************************************
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
>the views of the author.
>List Information: http://www.maphist.info


-- 
  The Observatory, ABAA
200 North Franklin Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
907/586-9676
fax 907/586-9606
deelong@alaska.com
http://www.observatorybooks.com
Since 1977
_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:31:00 -0600
From: "Roberto  L. Mayer" <vyrmayer@prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.8 required=5.0 

As a bibliophile I prefer books and atlases to remain in their original state, which will require restoration to be done periodically, but most atlases will not be called for too often. Libraries also tend to have horrible library bindings which are sturdy and stand up to rough handling, but at least they keep the whole work together when the original binding is beyond repair,  which is important.

Roberto L. Mayer

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Cobb" <cobb@fas.harvard.edu> To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>; <maps-l@listserv.uga.edu> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 11:52 AM Subject: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project


>
> Dear Colleagues -
>
> After several years of discussing the possibilities, we are pleased to
> announce that the Harvard Map Collection has begun to catalog its
> antiquarian map collection. This weekend (April 2-3) we will be remodeling
> the interior of the Map Collection to create a more efficient processing
> area so that we can have more room to review and catalog the maps. We will,
> of course, concentrate our cataloging efforts initially on the Boston and
> New England regions. Our plans are to quickly move into the America's,
> North America, and colonial America collections as well. Initial sampling
> for some of these maps reveals that we will be able to take advantage of
> the excellent cataloging already completed at the Library of Congress and
> other research library institutions.
>
> As with any such project, it is inevitable that duplicates will be
> identified. We are also finding many duplicates between our atlas
> collection and those of the flat map collection. Since so many of the
> atlases are difficult to use and our patrons always want the area usually
> found in the "gutter" it is had been decided that these maps would be far
> more valuable to our users if they were flat. Since we have no intention of
> selling the atlases, thereby the atlas value is inconsequential, it will be
> far easier to rid ourselves of the limits of those volumes. Therefore, it
> will be easier to "debind" and catalog them as flat maps and they are far
> easier to copy that way as well.
>
> Since we have begun our cataloging this seems an appropos time to complete
> two projects at the same time and make our collection more accessible and
> much easier for us to file. We look forward to keeping everyone aware of
> our progress.
>
> David Cobb
>
>
***************************************************************************
> David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417
> Harvard Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440
> Harvard College Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu
> Cambridge, MA 02138
HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps
> ************************** VERITAS
****************************************
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
> the views of the author.
> List Information: http://www.maphist.info


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: john@woram.com@mail.woram.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:34:02 -0500
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: John Woram <john@woram.com>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
X-Declude-Sender: john@woram.com [24.185.213.143]
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: None [-8]
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.4 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>

>Will the Harvard Map Collection do all of its "debinding" on April 1?

I hope that's the answer<g>. Otherwise, it's a bit odd that "...our patrons ALWAYS want the area usually found in the gutter..." I suppose there's all sorts of patrons in this world, but does the Harvard Library *really* need to cater to those whose minds are in the gutter? 

---
This E-mail was scanned for viruses by WebHouse, Inc. http://www.webhse.com  

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:01:51 -0500
From: Strebe@aol.com
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] RE: Harvard Map Cataloging Project
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
X-AOL-IP: 192.150.22.150
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0 


While I Mr. Cobb's particular announcement might reflect a certain April firstishness, in general disbinding an atlas need not be quite the disaster it often is perceived to be these days. In the circumstances Mr. Cobb describes it even seems reasonable. Disbinding does not mean anything particularly destructive to the academic value of the atlas. All the leafs would be retained. Even the binding could be retained if desired. The atlas could be fully reconstituted at any time in the future, possibly even improving upon the original binding even while keeping the original covers. The institution could elect to take preservation measures impossible or impractical in the bound state.

As far as commercial disbinding and dispersal goes, I also think the practice is reviled well beyond the magnitude of its transgression. I would never break apart an atlas because I prefer it whole. Obviously breaking an atlas increases the chances that any given map will slip into anonymous provenance in someone's collection. But let's be realistic: scarce atlases are more valuable whole than broken apart. If the atlas is common then there is no academic value in keeping it together -- the atlas already is widely available in libraries. If a particular atlas gets broken apart so much that it becomes scarce in its whole form, then obviously its value rises to the point that dealers no longer have any incentive to sell it off in pieces.

Realistically, I'm guessing that most atlases that are "candidates" for breaking have already been broken, unless they are truly common. These days I'm guessing that the only "rare" atlases being broken up are those that, while uncommon, are examples of states that are far from unique, that have missing leafs already, and whose bindings and boards have pretty well disintegrated. These have little academic value as they are (presumably plenty of examples exist in libraries) and may have considerable "academic" value elsewhere by promoting the collecting of, and therefore interest in, antique maps. If people could own only atlases then there would be far fewer people interested in antique maps because they simply would not be accessible. Even "common" atlases would be prohibitively expensive because the demand would be so much higher.

I'm not a dealer, so I don't really know if my speculations about what gets broken up or not are true. Nor do I want to come across as an apologist; after all, I really do prefer the whole atlas. But that's just a selfish aesthetic; if I really want to study a whole atlas, I can go to a library.

Feel free to flame me, but privately, if you must flame yet don't have any new insights to share with the group. New insights are welcome in public, I imagine.

Regards,
daan Strebe


In a message dated 4/1/2004 7:35:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Ron Hekier" <rhekier@hotmail.com> writes:

>Is it common for an academic institution to "debind" atlases?  I am a 
>relative new cartophile; my understanding has been that the academic 
>community is scornful of "debinding" or "book-breaking", a practice usually 
>performed by commercial dealers.
>My initial instinct is that atlases should, whenever possible, be left 
>whole.
>I look forward to discussion of this topic to further educate myself.
>
>Regards,
>Ron Hekier
>
>
>
>
>>From: David Cobb Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, 
>>maps-l@listserv.uga.edu Subject: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project 
>>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:52:59 -0500
>>
>>
>>Dear Colleagues -
>>
>>After several years of discussing the possibilities, we are pleased to 
>>announce that the Harvard Map Collection has begun to catalog its 
>>antiquarian map collection. This weekend (April 2-3) we will be remodeling 
>>the interior of the Map Collection to create a more efficient processing 
>>area so that we can have more room to review and catalog the maps. We will, 
>>of course, concentrate our cataloging efforts initially on the Boston and 
>>New England regions. Our plans are to quickly move into the America's, 
>>North America, and colonial America collections as well. Initial sampling 
>>for some of these maps reveals that we will be able to take advantage of 
>>the excellent cataloging already completed at the Library of Congress and 
>>other research library institutions.
>>
>>As with any such project, it is inevitable that duplicates will be 
>>identified. We are also finding many duplicates between our atlas 
>>collection and those of the flat map collection. Since so many of the 
>>atlases are difficult to use and our patrons always want the area usually 
>>found in the "gutter" it is had been decided that these maps would be far 
>>more valuable to our users if they were flat. Since we have no intention of 
>>selling the atlases, thereby the atlas value is inconsequential, it will be 
>>far easier to rid ourselves of the limits of those volumes. Therefore, it 
>>will be easier to "debind" and catalog them as flat maps and they are far 
>>easier to copy that way as well.
>>
>>Since we have begun our cataloging this seems an appropos time to complete 
>>two projects at the same time and make our collection more accessible and 
>>much easier for us to file. We look forward to keeping everyone aware of 
>>our progress.
>>
>>David Cobb
>>
>>*************************************************************************** 
>>David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard 
>>Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440 Harvard College 
>>Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 
>>02138                             HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps 
>>************************** VERITAS ****************************************
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: 
>>E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty 
>>of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and 
>>opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not 
>>necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of 
>>Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List 
>>Information: http://www.maphist.info
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE 

>download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
>the views of the author.
>List Information: http://www.maphist.info
>
_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Originating-IP: [24.119.227.39]
X-Originating-Email: [rhekier@hotmail.com]
X-Sender: rhekier@hotmail.com
From: "Ron Hekier" <rhekier@hotmail.com>
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: RE: [MapHist] RE: Harvard Map Cataloging Project
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 04:28:29 +0000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2004 04:28:29.0335 (UTC) FILETIME=[F2DC7270:01C4186A]
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>

April 1st!  I didn't even think about that.
I am sorry if I started a strongly opinionated thread that may be based upon a hoax, but I just wanted to get other opinions.

I recently began collecting antique maps, and in addition to a small number of loose maps that I have acquired, I have a couple of centuries-old texts in my collection.  I have not "debinded" the maps from the texts, feeling that I am destroying something precious if I do so.  At the same time, there is no doubt that if the maps where not folded in a text, they would be more easily accessible, and more often enjoyed and appreciated.

A touchy question for the conservators/amatuer chemists among us:  Is a map better conserved if removed from an old text and placed in a frame with appropriate safeguards?

Difficult questions perhaps being prodded by an April Fool's joke,

Ron Hekier

_________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Israel \"izzy\" Cohen" <israel_and_yvettec@012.net.il>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>, <maps-l@listserv.uga.edu>
Cc: <cobb@fas.harvard.edu>, <israel_and_yvettec@012.net.il>
Subject: [MapHist] Passover geography
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 08:10:05 +0200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.4 required=5.0 

The fact that this email is being sent the day after April 1st is purely Cohen-cidental.

This year 2004 Passover begins on Monday night 5 April. This reminds me that the ancient canals from the Nile to Great Bitter Lake and from that lake to the Red Sea may have been involved in the Israelite exodus from Egypt.

The first 4 of the 10 plagues seem to have involved Lessepsian migration:
1 Nile turning red, 2 frogs, 3 gnats, 4 flies, 5 murrain of livestock, 6 boils & blains, 7 hail, 8 locusts, 9 darkness, 10 death of firstborn.
Egyptian canals are mentioned in the description of the plague of frogs.

A Google search for "Lessepsian Red Sea Nile" produces 50 hits, e.g., http://www.sbg.ac.at/ipk/avstudio/pierofun/lm/lesseps.htm but none of them mention the events described in Exodus.

When the ancient canals were constructed, the difference in sea level between the Red Sea and Great Bitter Lake would have been considerable.
Sabotage of the canal locks and the Red Sea terminus may have been a factor in "splitting" the Red Sea. The "strong wind from the East" described at Exodus 14:21 would have helped push water into and through the canal so that the Red Sea just north of the canal would become lower.

Needless to say, at the Passover seder it is important to know the "meaning" of Misr/Mitzraim, Egypt and Goshen. Mitzraim is cognate with Hebrew MoSNaiM = waist. Egypt is analogous to Greek hePaTo- = liver.
(Compare Russian gepatit = a disease of the liver.) And Goshen means kidney, a bean-shaped organ derived from Semitic QTN = bean. Now you know why Ashkenazi Jews do not eat beans on Passover. Cotton (from Arabic QuTN, Latin Gossypium) is so-named because it was exported from Goshen/QTN. Now you know the etymology for English gossamer = cotton-like.

To see why the Red sea (Latin Mare Rubrum) is "red" and why it is called "yam SooF" in Hebrew, view the "Aphrodite" database at the BPMaps website. You can join BPMaps by going to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/join or by sending a blank email to   BPMaps-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Best regards,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
Israel_and_yvettec@012.net.il


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Carlucci, April" <April.Carlucci@bl.uk>
To: "'maphist@geog.uu.nl'" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>, maps-l@listserv.uga.edu
Subject: RE: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 10:11:35 +0100 
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.4 required=5.0 

All

The question is, is all of the Original Harvard Foolster's message a joke, or just the bit about debinding old atlases? I'd be sorry to hear there's no cataloging project, as I'm sure we're all dying to know what Harvard's got in its collection.

April Carlucci
British Library Map Collections

PS For those who might be thinking they'd like to know what's in the BL map collection too, you will in a few months when our new integrated catalogue goes on the Internet. Details will follow.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Cobb [mailto:cobb@fas.harvard.edu] Sent: 01 April 2004 18:53
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl; maps-l@listserv.uga.edu Subject: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project



Dear Colleagues -

After several years of discussing the possibilities, we are pleased to announce that the Harvard Map Collection has begun to catalog its antiquarian map collection. This weekend (April 2-3) we will be remodeling the interior of the Map Collection to create a more efficient processing area so that we can have more room to review and catalog the maps. We will, of course, concentrate our cataloging efforts initially on the Boston and New England regions. Our plans are to quickly move into the America's, North America, and colonial America collections as well. Initial sampling for some of these maps reveals that we will be able to take advantage of the excellent cataloging already completed at the Library of Congress and other research library institutions.

As with any such project, it is inevitable that duplicates will be identified. We are also finding many duplicates between our atlas collection and those of the flat map collection. Since so many of the atlases are difficult to use and our patrons always want the area usually found in the "gutter" it is had been decided that these maps would be far more valuable to our users if they were flat. Since we have no intention of selling the atlases, thereby the atlas value is inconsequential, it will be far easier to rid ourselves of the limits of those volumes. Therefore, it will be easier to "debind" and catalog them as flat maps and they are far easier to copy that way as well.

Since we have begun our cataloging this seems an appropos time to complete two projects at the same time and make our collection more accessible and much easier for us to file. We look forward to keeping everyone aware of our progress.

David Cobb

*************************************************************************** David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440 Harvard College Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138                             HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS ****************************************

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info


**************************************************************************

Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk 

Adopt a Book this season ! Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge.  www.bl.uk/adoptabook 

*************************************************************************

The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. 

The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. 

************************************************************************* 

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: vanderkr18@mail.vanderkrogt.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:03:20 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt <peter@vanderkrogt.net>)
Subject: [MapHist] Map of Castel of Khawabi near Tartous city
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Not distributed automatically because the subject starts with "Help", which is an administrative request. Peter.

Subject: Help Zeina, please!!
From: "m-ark@libero.it" <m-ark@libero.it>

Dear Maphisters,

I'm trying to help Ms. Zeina  Elcheikh a student at t= he faculty of architecture/Tishreen University at the end of study proje=
ct (BA).
She is working on a very interesting citadel, Qalaat Al-Khawabi= /Castel of Khawabi near Tartous city (in the syrian coast). I can help he= r in the approach to the research work, but I need your (all!!) help for = maps (geographical and topographical, if they exists). I'll forward your = messages to her.
The citadel wasn't used for military purposes since the=
  XII century, it was an inhabited village for a long time, especially dur= ing the ottoman occupation and now it's just ruins.
Thank you in advance=


Marco



Marco Iuliano
Centro di ricerca sull'iconografia della = citt=E0 europea
Palazzo Gravina-Via Monteoliveto 3
80134 Napoli

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "C.Delano-Smith" <c.delano-smith@qmul.ac.uk>
To: "Maphist" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: [MapHist] Moxon's SACRED GEOGRAPHIE (1671)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:15:35 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-Sender-Host-Address: 81.152.128.92
X-QM-Scan-Virus: virusscan says the message is clean
X-QM-Scan-Virus: ClamAV says the message is clean
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

Dear MapHisters,
I need to check the identity of the first two maps in the folio MAP volume that accompanies the text (octavo, oblong format) of Joseph Moxon's SACRED GEOGRAPHIE (1671)--- in the order originally published.

 The BL copy has been recently bound, and I have not as yet been able to access either the UCLA or the Florida copy (or indeed the micro filmed version of whichever it is on Early English Books Online), but should anybody have a suggestion to hand I'd be most grateful. Many thanks in advance.

Please reply to me personally (c.delano-smith@qmul.ac.uk).

Catherine


Dr Catherine Delano-Smith
EDITOR
IMAGO MUNDI The International Journal for the History of Cartography 285 Nether Street
London N3 1PD
U.K.

Please see IMAGO MUNDI's homepage
< http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html > (for journal content) or <http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/titles/03085694.html> for subscriptions and
> sales from Taylor & Francis (Routledge).


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: cobb@pop.fas.harvard.edu
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:11:24 -0500
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, maps-l@listserv.uga.edu
From: David Cobb <cobb@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.6 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>

Dear Colleagues -

Alright, the April 1st "Tom-Foolery" is over. I appreciated many of your suggestions and some willingness to trade for our atlas duplicates.

To be serious for just a moment - yes, we are beginning a project to catalog our antiquarian maps and we will begin with the America's. We are excited about discovering what's in our collection as much as anyone else. 
Our cataloging reflects the various practices used since 1818 and, with the assistance and publications from many of you, map cataloging now has many more sources to research mapmakers, engravers, cataloging dates, cataloging states, and so many other bits of information.

Sad for some, but our atlases will remain intact. As an aside, we have just completed the rehousing (reboxing) of all of our vellum bound atlases. 
Fortunately, we also have many cartobibliographies that more easily lead us to the contents of many of these atlases so it will be our antiquarian sheet map collection that will be our priority which will keep us busy for several years to come.

Just wait and see ---------------------

David Cobb

*************************************************************************** David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440 Harvard College Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138                             HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS ****************************************

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:27:17 +0200
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Lisa Yayla" <lisa.yayla@statped.no>
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=5.0 

Dear Mr. Cobb,
In your collection, do you have any 
tactile maps for the blind?
Regards,

Lisa Yayla
Huseby Kompetansesenter 
Oslo Norway
lisa.yayla@statped.no

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:25:30 -0500
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Joel Kovarsky <jsk@gamewood.net>
Subject: [MapHist] Alexander's gate
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<html>
<body>
I am looking to purchase a copy of Andrew Anderson's <u>Alexander's Gate, Gog and Magog</u>, Medieval Academy of America, Cambridge (MA), 1932.
This is for my own reference library, not a temporary use. It is not easy to find, hence posting to both lists. Just respond to me off-list at: tpm@the primemeridian.com. <br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you.&nbsp;&nbsp; Joel Kovarsky<br> </body>
</html>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:59:05 -0900
From: Dee Longenbaugh <deelong@alaska.com>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Alexander's gate
X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }  --></style><title>Re: [MapHist] Alexander's gate</title></head><body> <div>In case others may be interested, I'll note that the book is out in a modern reprint by the Medieval Academy of America. $20.00.</div> <div><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </x-tab>Sounds interesting, Joel!</div>
<div><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </x-tab>Dee</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>At 2:25 PM -0500 4/2/04, Joel Kovarsky wrote:</div> <blockquote type="cite" cite>I am looking to purchase a copy of Andrew Anderson's<u> Alexander's Gate, Gog and Magog</u>, Medieval Academy of America, Cambridge (MA), 1932. This is for my own reference library, not a temporary use. It is not easy to find, hence posting to both lists. Just respond to me off-list at: tpm@the primemeridian.com.<br> <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you.&nbsp;&nbsp; Joel Kovarsky</blockquote> <div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
<div><font face="Helvetica" size="+2"
color="#000000">&nbsp;</font><font color="#000000">The Observatory, ABAA<br>
200 North Franklin Street<br>
Juneau, Alaska 99801<br>
907/586-9676<br>
fax 907/586-9606<br>
deelong@alaska.com<br>
http://www.observatorybooks.com<br>
Since 1977</font></div>
</body>
</html>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 19:03:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Jay Lester <mapsguy@yahoo.com>
Subject: [MapHist] what book did this map come from?
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.4 required=5.0 

Hello,

I have a map that appears to have been removed from a book. The map title is:
"GEOLOGICAL MAP of the MINING DISTRICTS in the State of GEORGIA, Western parts of N. CAROLINA, and in EAST TENNESSEE by Jacob Peck."

Below the neat line at the bottom center of the map: Entered According to Act of Congress, District West Tennessee. N.
McNairy Clerk.

Below neat line bottom right:
J.W. Barber Sc.

AMPR lists dates ranging from 1829 to 1835, but no hint of the publication that originally contained this map. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Jay L.

=====
Jay Lester
Chapel Hill, NC
mapsguy@yahoo.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:42:30 -0500
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Joel Kovarsky <jsk@gamewood.net>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] what book did this map come from?
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<html>
<body>
<font size=3>Jay- If you don't get an answer elsewhere, you might check with the people at the Tennessee State Library archives. It seems that one Jacob Peck (if the same person, but the entries all cluster around that date) had a fairly active political career around that time, including a stint as a state supreme court justice, county commissioner and land grant adjudicator
(<a href="http://www.state.tn.us/sos/statelib/pubsvs/p-1.htm" eudora="autourl">http://www.state.tn.us/sos/statelib/pubsvs/p-1.htm</a>).<br><br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Joel<br><br> At 10:03 PM 4/2/2004, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Hello,<br><br> I have a map that appears to have been removed from a book. The map<br> title is:<br>
&quot;GEOLOGICAL MAP of the MINING DISTRICTS in the State of GEORGIA,<br>
Western parts of N. CAROLINA, and in EAST TENNESSEE by Jacob Peck.&quot;<br><br>
Below the neat line at the bottom center of the map:<br> Entered According to Act of Congress, District West Tennessee. N.<br> McNairy Clerk.<br><br>
Below neat line bottom right:<br>
J.W. Barber Sc.<br><br>
AMPR lists dates ranging from 1829 to 1835, but no hint of the<br> publication that originally contained this map. Any help would be<br> greatly appreciated.<br><br>
Regards,<br>
Jay L.<br><br>
=====<br>
Jay Lester<br>
Chapel Hill, NC<br>
mapsguy@yahoo.com<br><br>
__________________________________<br>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway <br> <a href="http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/" eudora="autourl">http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/</a><br> _______________________________________________________________<br> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography<br> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.<br>
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of<br> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of<br>
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for<br>
the views of the author.<br>
List Information:
<a href="http://www.maphist.info/" eudora="autourl">http://www.maphist.info</a></blockquote> <x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<br>
Joel Kovarsky for THE PRIME MERIDIAN <br> 385 Thistle Trail, Danville, VA 24540 USA <br> Phone: 434/724-1106; Fax: 434/799-0218 <br> email:&nbsp; tpm@theprimemeridian.com <br> Website:
&lt;<a href="http://www.theprimemeridian.com/" eudora="autourl">http://www.theprimemeridian.com</a>&gt; <br>
<i>&nbsp;&nbsp; Member, International Antiquarian Mapsellers Association<br>
</font></i></body>
</html>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 09:45:00 -0500
From: Steve Hanly <bicks@attglobal.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD   (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] what book did this map come from?
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html>
Jay Lester wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>I have a map that appears to have been removed from a book. The map
<br>title is:
<br>"GEOLOGICAL MAP of the MINING DISTRICTS in the State of GEORGIA, <br>Western parts of N. CAROLINA, and in EAST TENNESSEE by Jacob Peck."</blockquote> ...
<p>Jay,
<p>Marcou and Marcou's <i>Mapoteca Geologica Americana </i>lists this as no. 541.&nbsp; The source is an article in Silliman's <i>American Journal of Science and Arts,</i> Vol XXIII, New Haven, 1833.&nbsp; That Journal was the source of a number of early American geological maps.
<p>Best regards,
<p>Steve Hanly
<p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; B I C K E R S T A F F’s Books, Maps &amp;c.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Stephen P. Hanly, Proprietor
<br>&nbsp; Three Ellery Road&nbsp; ~&nbsp; Waltham, MA 02453 USA <p>&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone: 781-899-5504&nbsp; ~&nbsp; Fax: 781-894-2732 <p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; E-mail: sph@bickerstaffs.com
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Web site: <A HREF="http://www.bickerstaffs.com">http://www.bickerstaffs.com</A> <p>&nbsp;Books &amp; maps of 18th and 19th century America, <br>specializing in early New England imprints &amp; maps.
<br>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;</html>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 17:56:57 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of Owner MapHist <owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl>)
Subject: [MapHist] Re: Peck Map
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by randy.eatserver.nl id i33Fv1e21597
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Non-member submission from [pobe@att.net]

Dear Mr. Lester,

Re your inquiry of 4/2/04: I have a map that appears to have been removed from a book. The map
title is: "GEOLOGICAL MAP of the MINING DISTRICTS in the State of GEORGIA, Western parts of N. CAROLINA, and in EAST TENNESSEE by Jacob Peck."

The map you are asking about was issued as part of an article by Willima S. 
Peck which appeared in the American Journal of Science and Arts.

"Geological and mineralogical account of the mining districts in the state of Georgia - western part of North Carolina and of east Tennessee, with a map : American Journal of Science, 1833, v. 23, no. 1, pp. 1­10, map (Geological map of the mining districts in the state of Georgia, western parts of N. Carolina, and in east Tennessee by Jacob Peck, 36.6 x 29.6 cm.) .
You will also find this map listed in Marcou, Mapoteca Geologica Americana, No. 541.

Sincerely,
Stephen E, Pober
Pober Publishing
Publishers of the revised edition
of Hazen's American Geological Literature, 1669-1850. 

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "J.B. Post" <jbpost@netreach.net>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: [MapHist] Disbinding & removing maps 
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:08:32 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.2 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=windows-1252" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; David Cobb's e-mailing re disbinding may have been meant to be a bit of April Foolery, but the matter is serious.&nbsp; When large atlases in institutions need repair, it is legitimate to ask whether it might not be better to box the item flat rather than attempt to do a rebinding to emulate the original.&nbsp; Drawing on my experience at FLoP (Free Library of Philadelphia) many years ago, some atlases which had the leaves deacidified and encapsulated were rebound with the sheets flat.&nbsp; Yes, this made for a larger volume, but better for the maps in the long run, I believed.&nbsp; It might even make sense to box, rather than rebind, the whole atlas.&nbsp; Makes it easier to steal individual sheets/leaves, though.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; It is a somewhat different matter to deal with maps which have actually been removed from bound volumes, map sheets either bound in on tabs or folded into pockets in the book.&nbsp; I favor this as better preserving the map.&nbsp; Stored flat away from the volume still raises the question of classifying them or otherwise finding them.&nbsp; In this age of computers, actual physical storage may not be as important as it once was since intellectual control is the key with a location code leading to finding the map physically.&nbsp; Just for personal reasons, not for any great philosophical principles, I favor keeping the removed maps in&nbsp; folders in drawers or boxes on shelving in the order of the call number/press number/whatever of the book from which removed.&nbsp; This would hold even if the map were produced by a party other than the publisher and other copies were sold separately.&nbsp; National Geographic Society maps in government reports comes quickly to mind, but there are other examples as well.&nbsp; This approach may only work well when there are a large number of maps removed from books and the space can be found to store the maps by whatever classification system is used for the books - Dewey, UDC, LC, Superintent of Documents, some sort of record group, or whatever.&nbsp; I confess to not having been consistent in this policy, particular when the map and book accompanied each other and were never physically attached.&nbsp; Always had a note in/on the one telling where to find the other, though.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; This didn't have much about the history of cartography and I apologize.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; JBP </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Originating-IP: [205.184.183.222]
X-Original-From: "Philip Hoehn" <philhoehn@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 20:47:10 GMT
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Disbinding & removing maps 
X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0
From: Philip Hoehn <philhoehn@juno.com>
X-ContentStamp: 2:2:1671312383
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.9 required=5.0 


I'm in complete agreement with J.B.  His policy is what we did at University of California, Berkeley and at Stanford University.  Some maps in books and atlases are on very brittle paper and may have multiple folds.  The only feasible means of preserving them is to either section them and put them back into the volume (somehow), or better encapsulate them flat.  The volume and map(s) need to be linked bibliographically (penciled notes on the pieces or catalog records -- preferably both).

Philip Hoehn, Map Librarian
San Francisco 

   David Cobb's e-mailing re disbinding may have been meant to be a bit of April Foolery, but the matter is serious.  When large atlases in institutions need repair, it is legitimate to ask whether it might not be better to box the item flat rather than attempt to do a rebinding to emulate the original.  Drawing on my experience at FLoP (Free Library of Philadelphia) many years ago, some atlases which had the leaves deacidified and encapsulated were rebound with the sheets flat.  Yes, this made for a larger volume, but better for the maps in the long run, I believed.  It might even make sense to box, rather than rebind, the whole atlas.  Makes it easier to steal individual sheets/leaves, though.  
 
   It is a somewhat different matter to deal with maps which have actually been removed from bound volumes, map sheets either bound in on tabs or folded into pockets in the book.  I favor this as better preserving the map.  Stored flat away from the volume still raises the question of classifying them or otherwise finding them.  In this age of computers, actual physical storage may not be as important as it once was since intellectual control is the key with a location code leading to finding the map physically.  Just for personal reasons, not for any great philosophical principles, I favor keeping the removed maps in  folders in drawers or boxes on shelving in the order of the call number/press number/whatever of the book from which removed.  This would hold even if the map were produced by a party other than the publisher and other copies were sold separately.  National Geographic Society maps in government reports comes quickly to mind, but there are other examples as well  .  This approach may only work well when there are a large number of maps removed from books and the space can be found to store the maps by whatever classification system is used for the books - Dewey, UDC, LC, Superintent of Documents, some sort of record group, or whatever.  I confess to not having been consistent in this policy, particular when the map and book accompanied each other and were never physically attached.  Always had a note in/on the one telling where to find the other, though.  
 
   <snip> 
 
            JBP 


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Mon,  5 Apr 2004 08:13:23 +0300
From: dilos@hol.gr
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Alexander's gate
User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.2
X-Originating-IP: 62.103.71.193
X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.3(snapshot 20020312) (kosmos)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.1 required=5.0 



Dee,
I searched at www.bookfinder.com using the title Alexander's gate and this is what I came up with for sale:

Amazon.com
[United States] Hardcover, ISBN: 0910956073 Publisher: Medieval Academy of America
 $20.00 


D. Loizos


Dee Longenbaugh <deelong@alaska.com>:

> In case others may be interested, I'll note that the book is out in a 
> modern reprint by the Medieval Academy of America. $20.00.
> 	Sounds interesting, Joel!
> 	Dee
> 
> 
> At 2:25 PM -0500 4/2/04, Joel Kovarsky wrote:
> >I am looking to purchase a copy of Andrew Anderson's Alexander's 
> >Gate, Gog and Magog, Medieval Academy of America, Cambridge (MA), 
> >1932. This is for my own reference library, not a temporary use. It 
> >is not easy to find, hence posting to both lists. Just respond to me 
> >off-list at: tpm@the primemeridian.com.
> >
> >     Thank you.   Joel Kovarsky
> 
> 
> -- 
>   The Observatory, ABAA
> 200 North Franklin Street
> Juneau, Alaska 99801
> 907/586-9676
> fax 907/586-9606
> deelong@alaska.com
> http://www.observatorybooks.com
> Since 1977
> 


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: cobb@pop.fas.harvard.edu
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:20:19 -0400
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: David Cobb <cobb@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Harvard Map Cataloging Project
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.5 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>

Lisa -

We have very few - a subway map and maybe a couple of others. I know that the Library of Congress has several examples.

David Cobb

At 05:27 PM 4/2/2004 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear Mr. Cobb,
>In your collection, do you have any
>tactile maps for the blind?
>Regards,
>
>Lisa Yayla
>Huseby Kompetansesenter
>Oslo Norway
>lisa.yayla@statped.no
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
>the views of the author.
>List Information: http://www.maphist.info

*************************************************************************** David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440 Harvard College Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138                             HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS ****************************************

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: vanderkr18@mail.vanderkrogt.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 20:36:40 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Peter van der Krogt <peter@vanderkrogt.net>
Subject: [MapHist] Working Group on the History of Colonial Cartography (19th
  century)
Cc: elri@worldonline.co.za
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.3 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
I received this message from Elri Liebenberg for MapHist:
>
>The ICA (International Cartographic Association) has approved the 
>formation of a new Working Group on the History of Colonial Cartography in 
>the 19th century. The WG is coordinated  by Prof Elri Liebenberg, formerly 
>of the University of South Africa,  as Chair 
>(<mailto:elri@worldonline.co.za>elri@worldonline.co.za)  with Privatdozent 
>Dr Imre Josef Demhardt of  the Geographisches Institut, University of 
>Technology in Darmstadt, Germany 
>(<mailto:demhardt@geographie.tu-darmstadt.de>demhardt@geographie.tu-darmstadt.de), 
>acting as Co-chair.
>  Interested researchers should contact Elri Liebenberg for more 
> information on the WG's terms of reference and future plans as well as 
> the names and addresses of members.
>
>Best wishes
>Elri Liebenberg

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 20:40:27 -0700
From: "Duane F. Marble" <marble.1@osu.edu>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax; CDonDemand-Dom)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Big Donation to the Library of Congress (Washington Post)
X-Spam-Rating: mail.oregonfast.net 0/1/N
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
New World Collection Finds Its Way to Library

By Jennifer Frey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, April 7, 2004; Page C01

When the Library of Congress announced last year that its quest to purchase an extremely rare and valuable New World map from a German prince had been successful -- at a cost of $10 million -- it came with a flutter of regret. The 1507 map, by famed cartographer Martin Waldseemuller, had been bound together with another early 16th-century Waldseemuller map, and the library had been unable to raise $4 million to buy it as well. The two maps had been at the library, contingent upon final purchase, since 2001.

	

Enter Jay I. Kislak, a Florida real estate financier and philanthropist with a yen for all things connected to the early Americas. Kislak jetted off to the prince's castle in Germany, negotiated the purchase of the map (called the Carta Marina) and eventually brought it home to his foundation in Miami Lakes.

Only Kislak decided not to keep it there. In a major donation disclosed yesterday, Kislak's foundation plans to give the Carta Marina -- and approximately 4,000 other artifacts relating to the early Americas -- to the Library of Congress for exhibition and research. The Kislak Collection, which contains maps, manuscripts, books and artworks, has been appraised at more than $100 million, Kislak said.

"It's a concentration of just tremendously great research materials in a very focused area," said John Hebert, chief of the library's geography and map division. "And that focused area is important in the relationship of the United States to the rest of the Americas. It shows that initial contact when Europe reaches into America for the first time. Jay's collection documents all of that, and that's its beauty."

Items in the collection date back as far as 1200 B.C. and primarily involve what is now the southeastern United States, the Caribbean and Mesoamerica, according to a news release from the Library of Congress, which has not yet received and inventoried the items. The release did not put a monetary value on the collection.

"There is no doubt that Jay has given a substantial collection," said Hebert. "We paid $10 million for a single item [from this era]. That points to a very rich collection, and, obviously, the value demonstrates that there are a number of items that are unique, one of a kind."

In addition to the Carta Marina, which is described by the library as "the first printed navigational chart of the entire world," the collection includes such items as an eight-painting series depicting Hernando Cortes' "Conquest of Mexico," from the 17th century (those paintings alone are worth $5 million); manuscripts from early explorers such as Cortes and Francisco Pizarro; two printings of Christopher Columbus's letter to the king and queen of Spain, one with illustrations; and, from 1762, one of only five remaining original diaries of George Washington not already in the possession of the Library of Congress.

"You see more of Washington's true personality through farming than perhaps in any other essence of his life," said James Rees, executive director of Mount Vernon, who was disappointed the diary was not coming to his institution but recognizes that the Library of Congress makes for a natural home. "Washington's creativity, his love of experimentation, the fact that he was on the cutting edge when it comes to farming -- all those things really come through when he talks about agriculture."

Kislak, 81, describes himself as "just a little mortgage peddler from Hoboken." Born in that New Jersey city, he settled into the family business -- real estate brokerage and mortgage banking -- after receiving a degree in economics from the Wharton School of Finance at the University of Pennsylvania and doing a stint in the Navy during World War II. He moved to South Florida in 1953, and his collection began with books, particularly those that charted the history of his new home state.

"When you run out of big shelves and you already have turned the garage into an extra library and you've moved on to the carport -- then you start to specialize," Kislak said by phone from his Miami Lakes office.

 From Florida, his interest branched into the early Spanish explorers and his collection expanded to include a treasure-trove of items documenting the first European influences in Latin America and the Caribbean.

"Growing up in the Northeast, we begin to think the world in America began with Jamestown or maybe with Plymouth Rock, but 50 and 100 years earlier, the Spanish were here," Kislak said. " . . . This gives the whole picture of what was here in the early days of America."

When asked why he had decided to make the donation at this time (the library had been courting him even before he obtained the Carta Marina), Kislak lowered his voice to a whisper and replied, with a chuckle, "I'm getting old."

Kislak, whose wife, Jean, is an art historian and consultant, said he has also become a novice scholar along the way, and he's anxious to see more of the collection researched and explored. In addition to donating the artifacts themselves, Kislak is funding two annual research fellowships, a lecture series and some publications related to the collection.

"The early nature of so many of the documents and drawings is going to make this a particularly valuable donation to the library," said Laura Croghan Kamoie, an assistant professor of history at American University who specializes in early America. "Any scholar of early America knows that the earlier you are trying to find the resources, the less there are that exist."

It will take as long as two years before the entire collection is mounted in its semi-permanent form, Hebert said, but the library plans to exhibit some selected items in the Great Hall's North Gallery by this fall. Among those items, Hebert hopes, will be the Carta Marina.

"It was more than a twinge, it was concern," Hebert said of the regret he felt when the library was unable to purchase the piece. "We were seeing it separated. So it was a great joy that we discover . . . that in addition to us courting Jay for his own collection, he stepped in and made this acquisition."

© 2004 The Washington Post Company

-- 
Dr. Duane F. Marble		Email:  marble.1@osu.edu 2226 Primrose Lane		Telephone: (541) 902-8837 Florence, OR  97439		Cell:  (541) 991-1730

     "The collective noun for anecdotes is not 'data."



_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: MKBabinski@aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 01:12:38 EDT
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Big Donation to the Library of Congress (Washington Post)
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5015
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.4 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=US-ASCII http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"> <DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 4/6/2004 9:41:06 PM Mountain Standard Time, marble.1@osu.edu writes:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT face=Arial>The Kislak <BR>Collection, which contains maps, manuscripts, books and artworks, has <BR>been <U><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>appraised</FONT></STRONG></U> at more than $100 million, Kislak said.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV>Hmmm, that's a $35 million federal personal income writeoff for 2004 - must be a good year in real estate! But Florida? Ouch!!! - no State writeoffs there! Now we know why true art collectors and philantropists like Tyco's Kozlowski maintain a residence in New York City - no, no my friends - not because of its well earned reputation as the Sodom and Gomorra of the Americas - but because that location gives them irresistable pleasure of BOTH State and City writeoffs.</DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 08:06:14 -0700
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Paul S. Seaver" <seaver@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Big Donation to the Library of Congress (Washington
 Post)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by randy.eatserver.nl id i37F6QV28819
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.8 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Fellow MapHist'ers

It's not often that one starts the day by witnessing a double demonstration of generosity!  Many thanks to Duane Marble for sharing the Washington Post article with the news of Jay I. Kislak's fabulous gift to the Library of Congress.  Duane's collegiality is well known to this list, but none the less welcome for that, and the certainty that the two Waldseemüller maps will continue to share a roof and history pleases me no end.

Kirsten A. Seaver


-- 
_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: David Woodward <dawoodwa@wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Big Donation to the Library of Congress (Washington Post)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:20:29 -0500
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by randy.eatserver.nl id i37GKdq29304
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.3 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Dear All:

This really was good news about the Waldseemüller maps, as well as the fabulous gift of Jay Kislak's large collection to LC. Many of us we sad to think of the Waldseemüller being separated from its bound context. 
This is the best of all possible scenarios. There is much bibliographical work to be done on the item as an integrated artifact. 
This will make it possible. Congratulations to all.

David

On Apr 7, 2004, at 10:06 AM, Paul S. Seaver wrote:

> Fellow MapHist'ers
>
> It's not often that one starts the day by witnessing a double
> demonstration of generosity!  Many thanks to Duane Marble for sharing
> the Washington Post article with the news of Jay I. Kislak's fabulous
> gift to the Library of Congress.  Duane's collegiality is well known
> to this list, but none the less welcome for that, and the certainty
> that the two Waldseemüller maps will continue to share a roof and
> history pleases me no end.
>
> Kirsten A. Seaver
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________________________
> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
> the views of the author.
> List Information: http://www.maphist.info
>
David Woodward
1443 Mound Street
Madison WI 53711-2221

608 251 1074

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Originating-IP: [204.213.37.217]
X-Original-From: "Philip Hoehn" <philhoehn@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:36:52 GMT
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Additions to Rumsey online collection
X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0
From: Philip Hoehn <philhoehn@juno.com>
X-ContentStamp: 8:4:4062172636
X-MAIL-INFO: 23042544b9143d29092960ad75bd1029c0090de41044e1c020c0cdf9d46459c0ed49e0e5e44951e1c059492461d0d0a41175356565c480d97101b905d9608005bd0d0530d454f430396deddd30745d8585046438142525d570c0e159f049c0f170498d61
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.8 required=5.0 


The following are highlights from 1218 new maps just added to the David Rumsey Map Collection, www.davidrumsey.com  There are now over 10,000 map images online.  All titles may be found by launching the Insight Browser or Java Client and searching under Search/by Publication Author using the author last names below.  Or follow this link to the web page listing the new maps and atlases:  

http://www.davidrumsey.com/recentadditions.html  

Atlas of the Metropolitan District (of New York City), 1891 Bien, Joseph Rudolph; Vermeule, C.C., New York 13 Maps.  Covers New York City and the country around it, including parts of New Jersey and Westchester County, New York.  One of the finest examples of color lithographic map printing from the press of Julius Bien, noted American map publisher in the second half of the nineteenth century.
 

Grand Atlas Universel, 1816
Brue, Adrien Hubert, Paris
50 Maps.  Detailed, large scale maps of all the continents and France.

Carte de France, 1750-1815
Cassini, Cesar-Francois, Cassini family, Paris 210 Maps, including 18 digital composite maps joining the original Cassini maps into groups of up to 16 joined maps for viewing entire regions of France.  The first accurate trigonometric survey of an entire country, the Cassini maps span three generations of mapmakers and became the model for later national surveys in England and the U.S.

 
Cartes et Tables de la Geographie Physique ou Naturelle, 1770 De Lisle, Guillaume; Buache, Philippe, Paris 20 Maps, tables, and diagrams.  One of the first physical atlases published.

 
Atlas of Charts, 1828
E. & G.W. Blunt, New York
4 large charts on 10 sheets.  An early atlas of charts of the United States coast from Maine to Florida.

 
[General Atlas], 1811
Faden, William, London
60 Maps.  Maps of the entire world, variously dated from 1785 to 1811.

 
Description de L’Egypte, Atlas Geographique, 1826 France, Commission des Sciences et Arts d”Egypt; Panckoucke, C.L.F., Paris 53 Maps.  Covers the entire Nile River from its source to the delta, as well the coast of Palestine.  Very detailed maps by Pierre Jacotin in French and Arabic.
 

Allgemeiner Hand Atlas der Erde, 1856
Geographisches Institut [Weimar, Germany] 70 Maps and diagrams.  Extraordinarily detailed maps of the world, including three solar system diagrams.  The Geographic Institute at Weimar was one of the finest and most prolific publishers of world atlases in Germany during the nineteenth century.


Atlas of San Francisco, 1876
Humphreys, William P., San Francisco
60 Maps.  A detailed plat book of San Francisco showing all recorded and surveyed (though not necessarily built on) blocks of the city.

 
Physical Atlas of Natural Phenomena, 1856 Johnston, Alexander Keith, Edinburgh
36 Maps and views.  The second edition of an important nineteenth century physical atlas that is partly derived from the Berghaus Physical Atlas of 1849, also online.


Historical Atlas Map of Fresno County… California, 1891 Thompson, Thos. H., Tulare, California
105 Maps, views, and plans.  Thompson made several county atlases of the counties around San Francisco Bay, but this (with Tulare County below) was the only county atlas made elsewhere in California.


Historical Atlas Map of Tulare County … California, 1892 Thompson, Thos. H., Tulare, California
164 Maps, views, and plans.  A special sepia toned edition of this atlas (limited to 150 copies).  Thompson lived in Tulare County, which may explain the great detail shown here, his largest county atlas production.

 
Atlas Universel: Europe, Asie, Afrique, Amerique Meridionle, Oceanique, 1827 Vandermaelen, Philippe, Bruxelles
400 maps and views.  The first lithographic atlas of the world, with all the maps on the same scale.  If all the maps were joined together, they would form a globe 7.75 meters in diameter (such a globe was made in Brussels after the atlas was published).  The North American volume, Amerique Septentrionle, was put online previously, and these additional five volumes complete the online atlas.


Phil Hoehn, Map Librarian
San Francisco -- philhoehn@juno.com
-----------------------------------
David Rumsey Collection:
http://www.davidrumsey.com
_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Barber, Peter" <Peter.Barber@bl.uk>
To: "Maphist (maphist@geog.uu.nl)" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Cc: "lis-Maps (lis-maps@JISCMAIL.AC.UK)" <lis-maps@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>,
   'maps-l@listserv.uga.edu', 'urbgeog-request@listserv.arizona.edu'
Subject: [MapHist] FW: Helen Wallis Fellowship: invitation to applicants
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:03:02 +0100 
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.6 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>FW: Helen Wallis Fellowship: invitation to applicants</TITLE> </HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma">From:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma"> Barber, Peter<BR> </FONT><B></B><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma">Sent:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma"> 10 February 2004 11:25<BR> </FONT><B></B><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma">To:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma"> Maphist (E-mail); lis-Maps (E-mail); 'maps-l@listserv.uga.edu'; 'urbgeog-request@listserv.arizona.edu'; 'Libergdc-dg@nls.uk'<BR> </FONT><B></B><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma">Subject:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma"> Helen Wallis Fellowship: invitation to applicants</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">[Please excuse multiple posting of this announcement]</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=CENTER><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">THE HELEN WALLIS FELLOWSHIP AT THE BRITISH LIBRARY</FONT></B></P>

<P ALIGN=CENTER><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">CLOSING DATE:1 MAY 2004</FONT></B></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">This annual, named fellowship offers a convenient and unusually privileged working environment in the British Library.&nbsp; The Fellow will be treated like a member of staff (i.e. not restricted to reading room hours) and provided with their own work-station, with an e-mail account and access to the Internet.&nbsp; In addition, they will be entitled to £300 to spend on Library services.</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">&nbsp;The award honours the memory of the former Map Librarian at the British Museum and then British Library, Dr Helen wallis OBE (1967-1986) and confers recognition by the Library on a scholar, from</FONT><B></B><B> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">any</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> field, whose work will help promote the extended and complementary use of the British Library's book and cartographic collections in historical investigation. </FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Preference will be given to proposals that relate to the Library's collections and have an international dimension.&nbsp; The fellowship may be held as a full or part-time appointment, and would normally be for 6-12 months.</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">For the full terms of reference please contact the undersigned.</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">It would be most helpful if you told us where you saw this notice.</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><A HREF="mailto:peter.barber@bl.uk"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">peter.barber@bl.uk</FONT></U></A></P> <BR>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Peter Barber</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Head of Map Collections</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Map Library</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">The British Library</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">96 Euston Road</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">London NW1 2DB</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">&nbsp; </FONT></P> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">**************************************************************************</FONT> </P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk </FONT> </P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Adopt a Book this season ! Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge.&nbsp; www.bl.uk/adoptabook </FONT> </P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">*************************************************************************</FONT> </P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">************************************************************************* </FONT> </P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 21:04:28 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist <list-owner@maphist.nl>)
Subject: [MapHist] Maps online at Boston & New York public libraries
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Non-member submission from ["Al Magary" <al@magary.com>] Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:59:09 -0700

Article in the NYTimes
(http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/04/business/yourmoney/04prof.htm l) talks about large public libraries moving toward digitizing their collections.  Focus is on the Boston Public Library, which has mounted some highlights from their collection (http://www.bpl.org/store/index.asp).  (Note: In these online galleries, the first maps are local/Boston, moving outward into the world.)

Maps (57 images so far):
http://www.bpl.org/store/gallery.asp?page=1&gallid=27

Atlas maps (23):
http://www.bpl.org/store/gallery.asp?page=1&gallid=55

The images are larger than thumbnail but not enough to read many or any placenames.
--
The article also points to the NY Public Library's digital site (http://digital.nypl.org/), which has these map history galleries:

American Shores: Maps of the Middle Atlantic [and the wider world):
http://www.nypl.org/research/midatlantic/

Surveyors of the American West:
http://digital.nypl.org/surveyors/

Cheers,
Al Magary

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Dyallen2@aol.com
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 18:48:19 EDT
Subject: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 map
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5107
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=US-ASCII http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"> <DIV>I don't recall seeing any discussion on MapHist concerning the origins of the Waldseemuller 1507 map.&nbsp; Surprising, since the map has been in the news so much.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The content of the map is really remarkable, since it seems to show parts of North America, South America, Antarctica, and Siberia before they were officially "discovered" by Europeans.&nbsp; There is too much accurate detail in the depiction of these areas for the&nbsp;resemblance to be coincidental.&nbsp; I&nbsp; have recently read the book by Gavin Menzies on the alleged Chinese discovery of America in 1421.&nbsp; Predictably, he claims that the map reflects Chinese explorations.&nbsp; The thesis seems far fetched, but I can't think of any creditable alternative explanation for some of the information on the Waldseemuller map.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Anyone have any other ideas?&nbsp; Or is Menzies really on to something?</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>David Allen</DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>
X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "tony campbell" <t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 map
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:00:30 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 

David,

You might like to consult the following:

<
http://www.stanfords.co.uk/newsletter/current/archive/september_letter/htm/special-feature.htm > Martin WALDSEEMULLER. 'The European Discovery of the Pacific - A Cartographic Mystery' (abridgement of a talk by Peter Whitfield, at the British Library in July 2001, about the 1507 Waldseemüller map: 'how did he come to
represent the Pacific on his map a full decade before any European had actually seen the ocean?') {November, 2001}

I present this, without any supporting or otherwise comment, as a 'web librarian'.  The entry, incidentally, comes on the 'Web Articles: People' page of 'Map History' < http://www.maphistory.info/textpeople.html >.

Best wishes

Tony
***************************************** Tony Campbell
76 Ockendon Road
London N1 3NW
UK

t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk

Tel: 020 7359 6477  International: +44 20 7359 6477 ****************************************** 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://www.maphistory.info/
[NB. New address August 2003]

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: David Woodward <dawoodwa@wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 map
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 08:23:58 -0500
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.1 required=5.0 

<x-rich>"<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger> There is too much accurate detail in the depiction of these areas for the resemblance to be coincidental."


Are there statisticians among us who could comment on this statement?
How much "accurate detail" is required to fulfill such a condition?

</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

On Apr 9, 2004, at 5:48 PM, Dyallen2@aol.com wrote:


<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>I don't recall seeing any discussion on MapHist concerning the origins of the Waldseemuller 1507 map.  Surprising, since the map has been in the news so much.</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>The content of the map is really remarkable, since it seems to show parts of North America, South America, Antarctica, and Siberia before they were officially "discovered" by Europeans.  There is too much accurate detail in the depiction of these areas for the resemblance to be coincidental.  I  have recently read the book by Gavin Menzies on the alleged Chinese discovery of America in 1421.  Predictably, he claims that the map reflects Chinese explorations.  The thesis seems far fetched, but I can't think of any creditable alternative explanation for some of the information on the Waldseemuller map.</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>Anyone have any other ideas?  Or is Menzies really on to something?</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>David Allen</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

</excerpt>
</x-rich>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Philippe Forêt <pforet@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 map
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:01:09 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.8 required=5.0 

<x-rich><fontfamily><param>Arial</param>Dear David,


Please go to:

http://www.asiabook.com/browse/bookinfo.asp?ProdID=9789748496788

for information about a (serious) book that would put to rest speculations on the Chinese sources of the European cartography of the Americas.


Ma Huan's chose a terrible title for his book: _Ying-yai sheng-lan_ (The Overall Survey of the Ocean 's Shores). Had he known better, he would have selected something like _1405,  the year we Chinese discovered the Indian Ocean_. In his book he factually described the countries, from the Vietnamese coasts to the Red Sea, that admiral Zheng He visited. Since Ma Huan accompanied Zheng He as an interpreter ("I too was sent in a subordinate capacity as a translator of foreign documents"), _Ying-yai sheng-lan_ can be considered an eyewitness' account of the Chinese expeditions. 


The edition published by the Hakluyt Society in 1970 and reprinted by White Lotus Company in 1997 contains much more than a translation of the Chinese text. J.V.G. Mills added a long introduction on Zheng He (Cheng Ho)'s expeditions and Ma Huan's work, plus eight appendices on navigation, voyages, maps and rutters. Appendix 2 deals with the Mao Kun (Mao K'un) atlas, also called the _Wubei zhi_ (_Wu-pei chih_) chart after the encyclopedia where this series of maps is located.
This portolan, compiled around 1422, has instructions for Zheng He's pilots. J.V.G. Mills' edition includes only a few reproductions of these maps -- the Arabian Sea map, the stellar maps -- but a look at them would be enough to notice fundamental conceptual differences between 15th century Chinese maps and 16th century European maps. 


Neither in the Mao Kun map or in _Ying-yai Sheng-lan_ do we find information on the lands north of Shanghai, east of Timor (Qimen), south of Mocambique (Gedagan), west of Jeddah (Zhida).  At some point, well after 1507, the Chinese did discover America and explore Antarctica. For more information, see: 

- L. Carrington Goodrich, "China's First Knowledge of the Americas," _Geographical Review_, Vol. 28, No. 3. (Jul., 1938), pp. 400-411.

- Eugenio Menegon, _Un solo cielo_, Brescia, Grafo edizioni, 1994.

- Philippe Foret, "Mapping Ancient Chinese Antarctica," _Bulletin of the Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities_, No. 73 (2001), pp. 193-215.

The claim that the 1421-22 Chinese expedition would have explored America, during Zheng He's sixth expedition and Ma Huan's second voyage, is ludicrous. Better, if less sensational, explanations for the origins of the data recorded in Martin Walseemuller's map exist.

</fontfamily>

Best regards,

Philippe Foret



Le 10 avr. 04, à 00:48, Dyallen2@aol.com a écrit :


<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>I don't recall seeing any discussion on MapHist concerning the origins of the Waldseemuller 1507 map.  Surprising, since the map has been in the news so much.</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>The content of the map is really remarkable, since it seems to show parts of North America, South America, Antarctica, and Siberia before they were officially "discovered" by Europeans.  There is too much accurate detail in the depiction of these areas for the resemblance to be coincidental.  I  have recently read the book by Gavin Menzies on the alleged Chinese discovery of America in 1421.  Predictably, he claims that the map reflects Chinese explorations.  The thesis seems far fetched, but I can't think of any creditable alternative explanation for some of the information on the Waldseemuller map.</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>Anyone have any other ideas?  Or is Menzies really on to something?</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>David Allen</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>

</excerpt>
</x-rich>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:28:20 -0400
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: John Day <day@std.com>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 map
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 

<x-rich>Not to add unnecessary fuel to this "fire," more than one person has remarked on the "accuracy" of the coast of Alaska and McKenzie Bay on the Ricci 1602 world map, either it was a lucky guess or Ricci had data from the Chinese.


As to questions of accuracy and whether it is statistically significant, this would be very hard to even guess.  Knowing the outcome clouds our view of what we see.  For all we know, Waldseemller could have had a complete rogue for a source who lied through his teeth and just happened to be right.  It would seem that the only reasonable way to proceed would be to look at the sources used and how the mapmaker interpreted them.


I am reminded of a lesson I once got on the "monsters" on the Ortelius map of Iceland.  As I am sure you all know, everyone one of them is based a written description of a sighting by someone.  Sometimes badly translated, but a description nonetheless. The distortions for maps could be just as great.


Take care,

John



<excerpt>"<fontfamily><param>Arial</param> There is too much accurate detail in the depiction of these areas for the resemblance to be coincidental."


Are there statisticians among us who could comment on this statement?
How much "accurate detail" is required to fulfill such a condition?


</fontfamily>On Apr 9, 2004, at 5:48 PM, Dyallen2@aol.com wrote:


<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param>I don't recall seeing any discussion on MapHist concerning the origins of the Waldseemuller 1507 map.  Surprising, since the map has been in the news so much.

 

The content of the map is really remarkable, since it seems to show parts of North America, South America, Antarctica, and Siberia before they were officially "discovered" by Europeans.  There is too much accurate detail in the depiction of these areas for the resemblance to be coincidental.  I  have recently read the book by Gavin Menzies on the alleged Chinese discovery of America in 1421.  Predictably, he claims that the map reflects Chinese explorations.  The thesis seems far fetched, but I can't think of any creditable alternative explanation for some of the information on the Waldseemuller map.

 

Anyone have any other ideas?  Or is Menzies really on to something?

 

David Allen

</fontfamily></excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param> 

</fontfamily></excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param></fontfamily>

</x-rich>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Charles Burroughs" <stepladr@erols.com>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: RE: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 map
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:59:34 -0400
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">


<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=312534921-10042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>&lt; &lt;&nbsp; <FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>I am reminded of a lesson I once got on the "monsters" on the Ortelius map of Iceland. As I am sure you all know, everyone one of them is based a written description of a sighting by someone.&nbsp; &gt; &gt;</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=312534921-10042004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=312534921-10042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Reminds me of the time about a dozen years ago, while&nbsp; doing a "Grand Tour" of Scotland following a "regional" IMCoS meeting in Edinburgh, we had just come out of the "Official" Loch Ness Monster Museum while in that corner of the world.&nbsp; Upon getting&nbsp;back to&nbsp;our rental car, I noticed a "local" looking down into a well in the center of the parking area.&nbsp; After having been inundated by all the "evidence" about the existence of such a Monster, I decided to inquire of this gentleman about his opinion on the matter.&nbsp; He looked up for a&nbsp; moment, and responded in his best Scottish brogue:&nbsp;"It all depends upon your eyesight!"</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=312534921-10042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=312534921-10042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Charles</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl 
  [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]<B>On Behalf Of </B>John 
  Day<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 10, 2004 5:28 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 
  maphist@geog.uu.nl<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 
  map<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Not to add unnecessary fuel to this "fire," more than 
  one person has remarked on the "accuracy" of the coast of Alaska and McKenzie 
  Bay on the Ricci 1602 world map, either it was a lucky guess or Ricci had data 
  from the Chinese.<BR><BR>As to questions of accuracy and whether it is 
  statistically significant, this would be very hard to even guess. Knowing the 
  outcome clouds our view of what we see. For all we know, Waldseemller could 
  have had a complete rogue for a source who lied through his teeth and just 
  happened to be right. It would seem that the only reasonable way to proceed 
  would be to look at the sources used and how the mapmaker interpreted 
  them.<BR><BR>I am reminded of a lesson I once got on the "monsters" on the 
  Ortelius map of Iceland. As I am sure you all know, everyone one of them is 
  based a written description of a sighting by someone. Sometimes badly 
  translated, but a description nonetheless. The distortions for maps could be 
  just as great.<BR><BR>Take care,<BR>John<BR><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>"<?fontfamily><?param Arial> There is too much accurate detail 
    in the depiction of these areas for the resemblance to be 
    coincidental."<BR><BR>Are there statisticians among us who could comment on 
    this statement? How much "accurate detail" is required to fulfill such a 
    condition?<BR><BR><?/fontfamily>On Apr 9, 2004, at 5:48 PM, Dyallen2@aol.com 
    wrote:<BR><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE><?fontfamily><?param Arial>I don't recall seeing any 
      discussion on MapHist concerning the origins of the Waldseemuller 1507 
      map. Surprising, since the map has been in the news so much.<BR><BR>The 
      content of the map is really remarkable, since it seems to show parts of 
      North America, South America, Antarctica, and Siberia before they were 
      officially "discovered" by Europeans. There is too much accurate detail in 
      the depiction of these areas for the resemblance to be coincidental. I 
      have recently read the book by Gavin Menzies on the alleged Chinese 
      discovery of America in 1421. Predictably, he claims that the map reflects 
      Chinese explorations. The thesis seems far fetched, but I can't think of 
      any creditable alternative explanation for some of the information on the 
      Waldseemuller map.<BR><BR>Anyone have any other ideas? Or is Menzies 
      really on to something?<BR><BR>David Allen<BR><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE><?fontfamily><?param Arial><BR><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?/fontfamily></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:44:54 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist <list-owner@maphist.nl>)
Subject: [MapHist] Waldseemuller's 1507 Pacific and P. Foret's Chinese in
  Antarctica
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Non-member submission from [Paulo Afonso <afonso@lifshitz.physics.ucdavis.edu>]

Dear Philippe Foret, dear list members:

About the discussion on the Pacific knowledge in Waldseemuller map of 1507 and the Chinese knowledge of the world, specially Antarctica, I have some comments to add.

I am not an historian, but a physicist/astrophysicist - knowing enough of "statistics to discuss maps"...and I do not see any Antarctica part in the Waldseemuller map of 1507...I was in an Antarctica expedition once...and know a little bit about that continent and ocean...

The southern most tip of Waldseemuller maps seems to be the Cape of Good Hope - clearly pronounced out of the perimeter of the big map...I do not see any other part further south than Cape of Good Hope...in such map...so where is Antarctica ?

Cape of Good Hope is around 38 S - if memory serves - even if Waldseemuller putted it at 45 S (double-check that - I am speaking by memory...) ...or whatever....but clearly that is far from Antarctica...

Dear Mr. Foret - you wrote that "well after" 1507 the Chinese discovered America and explored Antarctica...

 > At some point, well after 1507, the Chinese did discover America and explore Antarctica. For more information, see:  >- - L. Carrington Goodrich, "China's First Knowledge of the Americas,"=>20_Geographical Review_, Vol. 28, No. 3. (Jul., 1938), pp.
400-411.
 >- - Eugenio Menegon, _Un solo cielo_, Brescia, Grafo edizioni, 1994.
 >- - Philippe Foret, "Mapping Ancient Chinese Antarctica," _Bulletin of=20  >the Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities_, No. 73 (2001), pp. 193-215.


Well it would be a pleasure reading your article about that, but I have a few serious questions about that, and please forgive my hard skepticism about such statement (no comments on all the pseudo-data in Gavin Menzies book and all that pile of entropy...). Nothing to do with arrogance, but instead with critical reasoning:

- in 1513 Jorge Alvares is the first Portuguese/European to arrive to China in the Modern Age, sailing to areas near todays Macau.

- Tome' Pires (and his Portuguese Embassy to the Chinese court) is killed after entering China, after waiting a few years to get permission to enter inner China

- The same Tome' Pires (and probably also Magalhaes) saw and mentions several times a Javanese map where other parts of the world where shown (as it seems Cape of Good Hope and parts of the West coast of South America, and even Brazil and the SW passage...but I am not sure about this...).

Again if memory serves well, such map was sent by Afonso de Albuquerque to King Dom Manuel - but it was lost and nobody really knows what it was about...except that it represented the Lequios people set of navigations.
Lequios was the name the Portuguese gave to the people of Ryukyu, the southern part of Japan nowadays/Okinawa area, etc.

- The main reason for the Portuguese to set on China/Macau and start trade with Japan, after the arrival to Tanegashima around 1543 (...Fernao Mendes Pinto) is precisely because the Chinese trading ships and "navy" was not capable enough of controlling such areas and rule commerce there...

So when you say that they explored Antarctica well after 1507, that clearly means after Jorge Alvares or Tome Pires presence in China...and in all the Portuguese records of such times show no such capacity of the Chinese to explore such areas. (This is a serious problem to answer if considering Chinese voyages after 1507 so further south...)

Actually that resulted from the doom of Cheng Ho fleet - when China closes within herself...forbidding the presence of Chinese people out of the country, etc.

- When Matteo Ricci finally manages to enter the forbidden city - due to crazy stories with clocks and bizarre Emperor behaviour - he is the one to produce the world maps that the Chinese will use for long...

Ricci starts his China presence in Macau as well - where the Chinese seem clearly quite ignorant about the rest of the world...calling themselves "Thienhia", or "all that exists under the sky"...

In fact when Matteo Ricci writes SE of Cape of Good Hope "Psitacorum Regio, as seen by the Portuguese but they did not stop"...this caught incredibly the eye of elite Chinese poets and philosophers, since there was already a Land of Parrots in China. In fact the importance given to the Land of Parrots is such that in subsequent Chinese world maps sometimes not even what corresponds to Italy today is refered in such maps, but the Land of Parrots clearly is!!

This can be found in publications from the Italian Institute of Culture in Kyoto. No mention or comparison to "Chinese Antarctica" is done at all though - How do you explain that Mr. Foret?...Would not they see that Land of Parrots is where we know Antarctica to be?...Why would they not associate it with their Antarctica - if that Land of Parrots was so conspicuos to them?...Strange, very strange?...

I mean, though very difficult it is not impossible to sail to Antarctica waters even in ships as the Portuguese ones. So if the Chinese had (????) indeed bigger ships...it would be feasible to perhaps do so? But where is such solid evidence? Or if it really happened how was it lost?....

Now this Ricci reference has nothing to do with the Cabral 1500 voyage shortly along the coast of Brazil, and the red mackaws, and the Cretico letter as many think and keep insisting.

W. Richardson has excellent writings about Terra Australis Incognita and many putative mistakes of Mercator - but he completely fails to refer Ricci, Gastaldi and Urbano Monte references to the Land of Parrots...keeping on
the track of the Cretico and Pisani letters *only*...

I am waiting for some documents from Firenze and preparing a paper exactly about the Psitacorum regio - where clearly at least the hypothesis of the Portuguese sighting Marion Island (where a copious colony of colourful King Emperor Penguins exists) can be defended...

Did the Portuguese sighted also Antarctica and not just Marion Island?
That is a good question - it would not surprise me, given that  the 1500's Corte-Real voyages and before the Danish-Portuguese expeditions of 1470's where already around 70 N...well Joao Corte-Real in New Foundland too in 1472-1473...

Still...we have no categoric evidence of that...as well as about Marion Island...and even if the Portuguese sighted Marion or Antarctica...somehow such knowledge was lost, either due to secrecy policy, or to the Lisbon earthquake of 1755 that destroyed the Royal Library and the House of India, just bellow it in front of the Tagus river...

So...if by chance the Chinese went that further south - it was not again a discovery, for it got lost for the common civilization patrimony...

Even so I am skeptic about such sightings of the Chinese...but still it would be great to read your article though...could you provide me with a copy somehow ?

Also Varthema and Joao Affonso (Jean Alfonse) have reports of voyages done further south - in Varthema case hearing about it before 1504 ( memory serving...)
or with Joao Afonso actually doing such voyage till 70 S...though many doubt about it (without any solid argument to show so - by the way...)...

About the Pacific knowledge...well the first European "clean" record of being in the Pacific is from Antonio de Abreu, when in command of a Portuguese fleet to the Molucas Islands in 1512 - and after Balboa (one year later !!) in 1513, crosses nowadays Panama...seeing then the Mar del Sur...

Still it is obvious that before Magalhaes named the Pacific, the Portuguese were already that further south...even if one does not accept that the "Tidings of Brazil" is about the SW passage discover (and originating all Schoener maps and Brazilia Inferior, etc.)...which is again a matter of controversy...(were or not Joao de Lisboa and the Nuno Manuel-Cristobal de Haro expedition of 1513-1514 in the SW passage? I clearly think so!!!)...the 1513 map of Piri Reis already shows presence of Portuguese that further south before 1513....

Were they in Antarctica as the reference to days/nights of two hours could point to?

Well Pigafetta also refers that the night was 3 hours long when they cross the SW passage...so it depends how "night" was defined...if total darkness...or sundown to sunrise...it clearly seems like totally dark in Pigafetta case...but what about Piri Re'is data?

Also in Vopelius maps of 1540-50's (memory...) one has an inscription on Terra Australis Incognita about 1499 being the year of its discovery...

Who could have been sailing that further south already in 1499 - clearly the only ones doing systematic navigations there were the Portuguese...but who exactly?

Could it be Valentim Fernandes or Peutinger the source of Vopelius (and Herominous Girava)...?

What about the interval between 1488 - Bartolomeu Dias in Cape of Storms - and 1497 when Vasco da Gama goes to India? Nothing happened in those 10 years...or we know nothing about it? Where there any navigations in such period - reasonably one can think so...

Dom Manuel documents sending criminals to South America in 1497, survived till today...so clearly the Portuguese knew Brazil before 1500 (or before 1494 and Tordesilhas for that matter...) and Cabral...but did they go further south...or even around to the west coast of South America, thus being the source of Waldseemuller map too as in many other parts of Waldseemuller map? Good questions once again...

The 1507 map has the Tail of the Dragon also on it - what seems to be South America attached to China, with a very small "Pacific Ocean = Sinus Major"...so it seems Waldseemuller got that info. from old sources...but all the New World info was based on Goncalo Coelho-Vespucci navigations and other Portuguese voyages to South America that followed (but about wich we do not know much...) ...or would Waldseemuller mix Portuguese and "Chinese or other" info. doing the map of South America...at the same time having the Dragon's Tail on the other side...?

Many questions - I have not many answers...but those presented here before are not clearly satisfactory to me...

Peter Dickson and before C. Furlong and C. Saenz also suggest there was probably some Portuguese navigations in the West coast of South America, before 1507?...Still they fail to show categoric evidence of being Portuguese such sources - despite the incredible shape of the South America map, and the Arica point curve, etc.

In a Pedro Reinel map of 1521 (or 1519...memory...it is on the Miller Atlas) Portuguese flags appear over what can be (???) nowadays Ecuador, in the Guayaquil area...then thought to be the Saba river...near Cattigara...

Do those mean actual navigations of Portugal there, or just a claim of an area just considered to be so close to China, that would stay within Portuguese Tordesilhas world...

I thing the last hypothesis is a more reasonable one...after what in such Reinel map the big Pacific Ocean of Magalhaes was not there yet...

Well...I do not know...maybe Waldseemuller sources about the Pacific were Chinese or other (Lequios ? Javanese ?) and older than Portuguese...but still that remains to be proved...

Please always double-check the precision of dates and names I wrote here - certainly close to factual data, but done on top of my knees still...

Best wishes,

Paulo Afonso

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Pellervo Kokkonen" <pellervo.kokkonen@kartta.org>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: VS: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 map
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:13:34 +0300
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.4 required=5.0 


Hello all,

My thesis regarding Waldseemüller 1507 is that he got hold of the Cantino/Caverio charts and superimposed the new map image on top of the old Ptolemaic map. Thus it would have been cartographic cut and paste job, without much consideration for the total image. This assumption is supported by the much more concervative approach in the alter works (1513).

	"...the map is also the first to depict a separate Western Hemisphere and the first to 	depict the Pacific Ocean as a separate body of water."

I am sceptical about this. What evidence do we have that Waldseemüller really wanted to suggest the existence of the Pacific?

Pellervo Kokkonen


-----Alkuperäinen viesti-----
Lähettäjä: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]Puolesta tony campbell Lähetetty: 10. huhtikuuta 2004 14:01
Vastaanottaja: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Aihe: Re: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 map


David,

You might like to consult the following:

<
http://www.stanfords.co.uk/newsletter/current/archive/september_letter/htm/s pecial-feature.htm >
Martin WALDSEEMULLER. 'The European Discovery of the Pacific - A Cartographic Mystery' (abridgement of a talk by Peter Whitfield, at the British Library in July 2001, about the 1507 Waldseemüller map: 'how did he come to
represent the Pacific on his map a full decade before any European had actually seen the ocean?') {November, 2001}

I present this, without any supporting or otherwise comment, as a 'web librarian'.  The entry, incidentally, comes on the 'Web Articles: People' page of 'Map History' < http://www.maphistory.info/textpeople.html >.

Best wishes

Tony
***************************************** Tony Campbell
76 Ockendon Road
London N1 3NW
UK

t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk

Tel: 020 7359 6477  International: +44 20 7359 6477 ****************************************** 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://www.maphistory.info/
[NB. New address August 2003]

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:45:46 -0400
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: James Enterline <kv2z@amsat.org>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 map
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by randy.eatserver.nl id i3D0Ju407574
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Many thanks to Tony Campbell for pointing out Peter Whitfield's excellent article.  We all know well that a map is an abstraction of certain "knowledge" of its author, and our challenge is to reverse the process of abstraction.  In seeking tools to guide us, statistics has sometimes been useful, but Charles Hapgood has shown us how dangerous that can become.  One of the guides that I have tried to use in my recent book is to look for affinities of implication in various independent sources.  And indeed, there are other baskets besides Cheng Ho's into which  Waldseemuller's eggs can be put.  I have suggested that during the decades before Waldseemuller there was a general unsureness about the global paradigm, caused by attempts to assimilate information sources from the west instead of the east.  If Waldseemuller was exposed to such discussions, a great likelihood, his "Pacific" would be merely the remains of the "one ocean," not the South Sea of Balboa.

This leaves un-addressed the question of the character and shape of the western coasts.  I have no more difficulty in leaving this as an unanswered question than I do in attributing it to Cheng Ho.  But I must acknowledge that I have not yet read Menzies' book.

Jim Enterline

At 12:00 PM 04/10/04 +0100, you wrote:
>David,
>
>You might like to consult the following:
>
><
>http://www.stanfords.co.uk/newsletter/current/archive/september_letter/htm/ 
>special-feature.htm >
>Martin WALDSEEMULLER. 'The European Discovery of the Pacific - A
>Cartographic Mystery' (abridgement of a talk
>by Peter Whitfield, at the British Library in July 2001, about the 1507
>Waldseemüller map: 'how did he come to
>represent the Pacific on his map a full decade before any European had
>actually seen the ocean?') {November, 2001}
>
>I present this, without any supporting or otherwise comment, as a 'web
>librarian'.  The entry, incidentally, comes on the 'Web Articles: People'
>page of 'Map History' < http://www.maphistory.info/textpeople.html >.
>
>Best wishes
>
>Tony
>*****************************************
>Tony Campbell
>76 Ockendon Road
>London N1 3NW
>UK
>
>t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk
>
>Tel: 020 7359 6477  International: +44 20 7359 6477


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Philippe Forêt <pforet@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] re: Waldseemuller 1507 map
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:51:20 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by randy.eatserver.nl id i3DBKrl22879
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.8 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
The transmission of 15th century Chinese cartographical expertise to European navigators and mapmakers is a hypothesis that only speculations have backed and not scholarship. Apart from J.V.G Mills with his translations of _Xing-cha sheng-lan_ (The overall survey of the star raft) and _Ying-yai sheng-lan (Overall survey of the ocean shores), a number of respected sinologists have studied Zheng He's (or Cheng Ho) travels. I would quote Paul Pelliot's _Les grands voyages maritimes chinois au début du XVe siecle_, and J.J.L. Duyvendak's _China's Discovery of Africa_. Chinese historians have written a number of books on Zheng He, the most important in my opinion being the thin _Zheng He xia Xiyang_ (Zheng He sails down the Western Seas) by Fan Zhongyi.

I would not dream of piloting a nuclear submarine without some training. Why Menzies believe that his years with the Royal Navy qualify him to be the supreme expert  in Ming maritime science and cartography, etc. is beyond my understanding. In China, no archival material, map, pilot book, or travelogue can support the claim that Zheng He fleet sailed further that Jeddah and Mocambique. China (be it Ming, Qing, Republican or communist) did not organize a maritime expedition to discover, explore and survey America, Australia and Antarctica, until 1984-85 when a party of scientists landed on the southern tip of King George island to build Great Wall Station.

Philippe Foret


Le 12 avr. 04, à 23:45, James Enterline a écrit :

> Many thanks to Tony Campbell for pointing out Peter Whitfield's  
> excellent article.  We all know well that a map is an abstraction of  
> certain "knowledge" of its author, and our challenge is to reverse the  
> process of abstraction.  In seeking tools to guide us, statistics has  
> sometimes been useful, but Charles Hapgood has shown us how dangerous  
> that can become.  One of the guides that I have tried to use in my  
> recent book is to look for affinities of implication in various  
> independent sources.  And indeed, there are other baskets besides  
> Cheng Ho's into which  Waldseemuller's eggs can be put.  I have  
> suggested that during the decades before Waldseemuller there was a  
> general unsureness about the global paradigm, caused by attempts to  
> assimilate information sources from the west instead of the east.  If  
> Waldseemuller was exposed to such discussions, a great likelihood, his  
> "Pacific" would be merely the remains of the "one ocean," not the  
> South Sea of Balboa.
>
> This leaves un-addressed the question of the character and shape of  
> the western coasts.  I have no more difficulty in leaving this as an  
> unanswered question than I do in attributing it to Cheng Ho.  But I  
> must acknowledge that I have not yet read Menzies' book.
>
> Jim Enterline
>
> At 12:00 PM 04/10/04 +0100, you wrote:
>> David,
>>
>> You might like to consult the following:
>>
>> <
>> http://www.stanfords.co.uk/newsletter/current/archive/ 
>> september_letter/htm/ special-feature.htm >
>> Martin WALDSEEMULLER. 'The European Discovery of the Pacific - A
>> Cartographic Mystery' (abridgement of a talk
>> by Peter Whitfield, at the British Library in July 2001, about the  
>> 1507
>> Waldseemüller map: 'how did he come to
>> represent the Pacific on his map a full decade before any European had
>> actually seen the ocean?') {November, 2001}
>>
>> I present this, without any supporting or otherwise comment, as a 'web
>> librarian'.  The entry, incidentally, comes on the 'Web Articles:  
>> People'
>> page of 'Map History' < http://www.maphistory.info/textpeople.html >.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Tony
>> *****************************************
>> Tony Campbell
>> 76 Ockendon Road
>> London N1 3NW
>> UK
>>
>> t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk
>>
>> Tel: 020 7359 6477  International: +44 20 7359 6477
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
> the views of the author.
> List Information: http://www.maphist.info
>

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "tony campbell" <t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk>
To: "*MapHist" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>, "*Lismaps" <lis-maps@jiscmail.ac.uk>
Subject: [MapHist] Last two 'Maps and Society' talks
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:55:24 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

{Please excuse cross-posting}


Details of the final two talks in this series are as follows:


                              'MAPS AND SOCIETY'

                                The Warburg Institute

                           Thirteenth Series: 2003-2004
                        *************************

Lectures in the history of cartography convened by Catherine Delano Smith (Institute of Historical Research) and Tony Campbell (formerly Map Library, British Library). Meetings are held on selected Thursdays at the Warburg Institute, School of Advanced Study, University of London,Woburn Square, London WC1H OAB at 5.00 pm. Admission is free. Meetings are followed by refreshments. All are most welcome. Enquiries: +44 (0) 20 8346 5112 (Dr Delano Smith) or < t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk >.

April 22.   Dr Zur Shalev (Princeton University) The Church Cartographical: Propaganda and Controversy in Early Modern Ecclesiastical Mapping.  {*Please note that this is a change to the programme*}

May 27.   Dr Scott Westrem  (City University of New York)  Calculation, Delineation, Depiction, Inscription: the Practicalities of Medieval Mapmaking.

--------------------------------------------------------------

This programme has been made possible through the generous sponsorship of The International  Map Collectors' Society, Jonathan Potter of Jonathan Potter Ltd., and Laurence Worms of Ash Rare Books, and is supported by Imago Mundi.  DISPLAYS for each lecture, at the Royal Geographical Society, are arranged by Francis Herbert, Hon FRGS. Note that the Society's Library and Map Room will be closed until Spring 2004, although both the Picture Library and Archives remain open by appointment.  See<http://www.rgs.org> - 'Collections'; 'Unlocking the Archives Project'.

-------------------------------------------------------------- Please note that the web version of the programme is at a new URL < http://www.maphistory.info/warburgprog.html > [the 'Map History' site has moved].  That URL can be bookmarked, as it will always contain the current programme.  For a comprehensive list of talks and meetings in the history of cartography, see John Docktor's 'Calendar' < http://home.earthlink.net/~docktor/index.htm >.  [You will note there the details of another talk being given by Dr Shalev in London on 24 May].
--------------------------------------------------------------

Tony Campbell <t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk>

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Info: This message was accepted for relay by
	smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net as the sender used SMTP authentication
X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVas8Lfb8fFeE44FNP7yjLEeRRrP4CwZT6uWmkkTZIKlyFhdykd12elcsdJlFa731cA=
X-Sender: sanderva@pop.erols.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:04:51 -0400
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
From: Washington Map Society <sanderva@erols.com>
Subject: [MapHist] "The Portolan" (Washington Map Society) - Issue 59 - SHEESLEY
  on William Whewell's Maps of the Oceanic Tides; DE VORSEY on maps as
  historical evidence in legal proceedings; COOK on maps of Afghanistan;
  DEMPSEY, ENGSTROM, McCONNELL and VOGEL on Irish maps and genealogy;
  ten book/map reviews; and more.
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<html>
<body>
<font face="Univers">With the demise of &quot;Mercator's World,&quot;&nbsp; “The Portolan” is now the only journal published in North America dedicated to supporting and promoting map collecting, cartography, and cartographic history.<br> &nbsp;<br>
&quot;The Portolan&quot; has been published since 1984 and welcomes you to investigate and try this thrice-yearly journal with articles on maps, the history of cartography, and exploration.&nbsp; Below is information on the issue just published.&nbsp; See the end of this message for the link to the contents list of all back issues and an index to those issues.&nbsp; You will see that the focus of the society and the journal is not solely Washington.&nbsp; There is something for YOU in this journal.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<b>&quot;THE PORTOLAN&quot;: JOURNAL OF THE WASHINGTON MAP SOCIETY<br> ISSUE 59 (Spring 2004)<br>
</b>--------------------------------------------------------------<br> Issue 59 (Spring 2004), consisting of 80 pages, was published in April 2004 and has been sent to all subscribers and members in good standing of the Washington Map Society. Copies are available for purchase.<br> &nbsp;<br>
<b>BEN SHEESLEY</b>’s prize winning article weaves a fascinating tale on the mapping of oceanic tides. <b>PATRICK DEMPSEY, KATHRYN ENGSTROM, EILEEN McCONNELL AND STEVE VOGEL</b> relate the over 20-year project to catalog all Irish maps at the Library of Congress – the result has been a boon for researchers into these maps and especially for genealogists – their methods and results are described in detail.&nbsp; <b>CYNTHIA COOK</b> delivers a brief history of Afghanistan and describes just a portion of the many maps of this country at the Library of Congress – hints are given in researching these on the Internet. <b>LOUIS DE VORSEY</b> has for many years served as an expert witness in legal proceedings concerning geographic issues; in this article he describes how he has used young George Washington’s maps (and those of others) as evidence in the nation’s longest running land case. Five founding members of the Washington Map Society share thoughts about themselves and maps.&nbsp; Nine books and one map are reviewed.&nbsp; And there is more.
&quot;The Portolan&quot; is published three times per year; issue 60 is due for release in late August 2004.<br> &nbsp;<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------<br> <b>CONTENTS OF ISSUE 59 – Spring 2004<br> </b>&nbsp;<br>
<u>ARTICLES<br>
</u>“A Humboltian Science Framework for William Whewell's Maps of the Oceanic Tides” by Ben Sheesley (Winning article of the 2003 Ristow Prize for&nbsp; Cartographic History and Map Librarianship)<br> “Maps &amp; Genealogy: The Irish Map Project at the Library of Congress” by Patrick Dempsey, Kathryn Engstrom, Eileen McConnell and Steve Vogel<br>
“Historical&nbsp; Maps of Afghanistan in the Collections of the Library of Congress” by Cynthia Cook<br>
“Historical Maps as Evidence” by Louis De Vorsey<br> &nbsp;<br>
<u>RECENT PUBLICATIONS<br>
</u>A regular feature in 'The Portolan,' this is a bibliographic listing of articles and books appearing worldwide on antique maps and globes and the history of cartography. By Eric W. Wolf.<br> &nbsp;<br>
<u>BOOK/ MAP REVIEWS<br>
</u>“Charting Louisiana: Charting Louisiana: Five Hundred Years of Maps” (Reviewer: Dennis Reinhartz) <br>
“Tooley’s Dictionary of Map Makers – Revised Edition: A-D, E-J, K-P” (Reviewer: Eric W. Wolf)<br>
“Journal of the Croatian Cartographic Society - Volume 1” (Reviewer: Joel L. Morrison) <br>
Two Books of Maps of Cyprus [“Maps of Cyprus from the Collections of the Bank of Cyprus Cultural Foundation” and “Sweet Land of Cyprus: The European Cartography of Cyprus (15th-19th Century) from the Sylvia Ioannou Collection”] (Reviewer: Bert Johnson)<br> “The World Through Maps: A History of Cartography” (Reviewer: Eric W.
Wolf)<br>
“Atlas der österreichischen Gemütlichkeit, 1800-1918” (Reviewer: Eric W.
Wolf)<br>
Map (“Theater Map of the Gettysburg Campaign 1863”) by Earl McElfresh (Reviewers: David R. Boyd and Ronald L. Paul)<br> &nbsp;<br>
<u>SHORTER ITEMS<br>
</u>1. Washington Map Society Meetings, May-September 2004.<br> 2. Exhibitions and Meetings.<br>
3. WMS 25th Anniversary Symposium and Celebration – May 20-22, 2004.<br>
4.&nbsp; 2004 Ristow Prize Competition.<br> 5.&nbsp; “IMCoS 2004 in Italy” by Bert Johnson<br> 6.&nbsp; Spotlight on the WMS FOUNDING Membership: Abbey, Fondersmith, Grim, Ristow, Wolter<br>
7.&nbsp; Map Site Seeing: Key World Wide Web map sites. <br> 8.&nbsp; Cartographic Notes.&nbsp; By Thomas F. Sander.<br> &nbsp;<br>
<u>AUTHORS OF ARTICLES IN THIS ISSUE<br> </u>BENJAMIN C. SHEESLEY, winner of the 2003 Ristow Prize, is a Ph.D student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.<br> PATRICK DEMPSEY, a Catholic Priest, served over 15 years at the National Archives and the Geography and Map Division of the Library of Congress.<br>
KATHRYN ENGSTROM is head of the Geography and Map Division Reading Room, Library of Congress.<br>
EILEEN McCONNEL is an Irish genealogist who invested 22 years as a volunteer with the Irish Map Project.<br> STEVEN VOGEL is Secretary of the Washington Map Society<br> CYNTHIA COOK is senior reference librarian at the Geography and Map Division, Library of Congress.<br>
DR. LOUIS DE VORSEY, Jr, professor emeritus of Geography at the University of Georgia, is one of the most highly honored historical geographers in the Southeast USA.<br>
ERIC W. WOLF, twice past President of the Washington Map Society, is an internationally recognized authority on the history of cartography. He is the immediate past president of the Society for the History of Discoveries.<br>
DENNIS REINHARTZ is Associate Professor of Russian and East European History at the University of Texas at Arlington, where he also teaches the history of cartography.<br>
JOEL L. MORRISON, professor emeritus of Geography at the Ohio State University, has been president of the International Cartographic Association and the American Congress on Surveying and Mapping. He was also Chief of the Geography Division at the U.S. Bureau of the Census.<br>
HUBERT O. (BERT) JOHNSON has attended several past IMCoS symposia and spoke on mapmaker Joseph Roux at the Cyprus IMCoS Symposium in October 2003.<br>
DAVID R. BOYD and RONALD L. PAUL are both Doctors of Medicine. Dr. Paul is a Gettysburg resident and historian on the Gettysburg area and battle.
Dr. Boyd’s interests include the Civil War.<br> &nbsp;<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<br> Web Site for more information about the Washington Map Society is at its home page:<br>
<a href="http://www.washmap.org/" eudora="autourl">http://www.washmap.org<br> </a>A listing and index of the contents of all issues of 'The Portolan' is accessible at
<a href="http://www.portolan.washmap.org/">http://www.portolan.washmap.org</a>&nbsp;&nbsp; Also at this location is information on how to order and locate issues of the journal, and procedures for prospective authors.<br> &nbsp;<br>
Membership/Subscription Cost: Subscription cost is the same as membership, and may be commenced at any time. To U.S. and Canadian addressees, the cost is US $35.00 per year. For foreign addressees, the annual cost is US $ 35.00, to which must be added $ 6.00 for surface posting, or $ 10.00 per year for air posting of &quot;The Portolan.&quot; Multiple year memberships are available. Payment is accepted in US dollars only. Those outside the US may use PayPal. A membership/ subscription/PayPal details form can be found at the Washington Map Society Web Site. For further information, contact John Docktor at washmap@earthlink.net<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Current/Past Copies: Copies of 'The Portolan' beginning with issue 44 cost US$12.00 postpaid for US addressees; the cost is US$14.00 to other countries, which includes airmail posting. Payment is accepted in US dollars only. Issues 43 and earlier are available at a lower cost. A discount is given for orders of multiple issues. See <a href="http://www.portolan.washmap.org/">www.portolan.washmap.org</a> for details on ordering the current or past 'Portolans'.<br> &nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
****************************************<br> Posted By:<br>
Thomas F. Sander<br>
Editor, 'The Portolan'<br>
Washington Map Society<br>
P.O. Box 10793<br>
Burke, VA 22009-0793 USA<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Phone: 703.426.2880&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; International: +1.703.426.2880<br> E-mail: Sanderva@erols.com<br>
Web Site:&nbsp; <a href="http://www.washmap.org/" eudora="autourl">www.washmap.org<br> </a>Portolan Web Site: <a href="http://www.portolan.washmap.org/" eudora="autourl">www.portolan.washmap.org<br> </a>**************************************************<br><br> excuse cross-posting<br>
</font></body>
</html>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Dyallen2@aol.com
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:59:31 EDT
Subject: [MapHist] Re:  Waldseemuller 1507 map
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5107
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=US-ASCII http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"> <DIV>Many thanks to the people who replied to my question about the sources of the Waldseemuller map.&nbsp; It looks like I can look forward to a lot of interesting reading when I get a chance.&nbsp; Right now I am engaging in some other geographic investigations by driving across the United States from New York to San Diego.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I confused some people by mentioning the depiction of Antarctica on the 1507 map.&nbsp; That was an error--I should have reexamined the map before hitting the keyboard.&nbsp; I was thinking of another Waldseemuller map which shows a (very large) Antarctica.&nbsp; However, I see on the copy of the 1507 map in the Menzies book, which I have with me, that the map does distinctly show the Kerguelen Islands, and the Darwin Peninsula of Australia can be seen poking up from the bottom of the map.&nbsp; I would very much like to know how Waldseemuller got this information.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It is interesting to compare the Waldseemuller map with the Cantino chart of 1502.&nbsp; The depiction of the east coast of North America and the Caribbean is either copied by Waldseemuller from Cantino, or both are based on a common source.&nbsp; Cantino, however, does a much better job of depicting the Indian Ocean,most of which was still unknown to Europeans in 1502.&nbsp; I also wonder where he got his information.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Finally,I have noticed on my travels that Chinese restaurants can be found throughout the southern part of the United States, including many very obscure towns.&nbsp; Some of them look very old.&nbsp; Surely this points to a Chinese discovery of North America prior to 1984, although I doubt that any of them can be traced back to the fifteenth century.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>David Allen</DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Jens P. Bornholt" <borncafe@terra.com.gt>
To: "Maphist" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: [MapHist] Prince Sydi
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:07:38 -0600
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 



Blaeu published sumptuously bound townbooks ("Toonel der Steden" 1649-51), a copy of which was presented to Prince Sydi Abdullah of Sale (????) when his envoy arrived in Holland to negotiate yet another peace treaty after the Dutch East India suffered losses from pirate's attacks.
Can somebody tell me who this personage could have been?
Jens P.Bornholt


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:18:55 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist <list-owner@maphist.nl>)
Subject: [MapHist] sources of the 1507 Waldseemuller map - and Cantino 1502 one
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.5 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Non-member submission from [Paulo Afonso <afonso@lifshitz.physics.ucdavis.edu>]

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:45:13 -0700 (PDT)

Dear P. Foret, D. Allen , list members:

Hello,

I am also a list member - but my e.mail address/domain/machine was slightly changed very recently...trying to arrange that....having "trouble" answering you automatically...

Mr. Foret - you wrote:

 >China (be it Ming, Qing, Republican or communist) did not organize a maritime expedition to discover, explore and survey America, Australia and Antarctica, until 1984-85 when a party of scientists landed on the southern tip of King George island to build Great Wall Station.

 >Philippe Foret


So ...what about your paper on China "way after 1507" exploration of Antarctica, "Chinese Antarctica", etc. - what was that about? You are confusing me now...

Actually I know a bit about the UNESCO - Oceans Commission scholarships the Chinese got before starting the idea of building "Great Wall" as their base in Antarctica, etc. .

Again, it would be interesting to read your paper anyhow...

Mr. Allen - I just returned from a Spring car trip across 14 states of the USA, in 11 days, 9600 Km...almost 1/4 of the Earth's perimeter at Equator...

California-Chicago (via Nevada-Arizona-Utah-Colorado, etc.) and back (via Minnesota-S. Dakota-Wyoming-Montana-Idaho. The inner USA are fabulous...Cody, Buffalo, Wyoming...very nice places...if you like nature...and all the way of life of Buffalo Bill, etc.

Back to history: in 1502 the Portuguese have been (with documents about these voyages) a few times in the Indian Ocean already and Cantino map shows just that. After Vasco da Gama 1497-1499 initial voyage, Alvares Cabral does the second one in 1500 (claiming Brazil on his way), Joao da Nova does another voyage in 1501, in 1502 Vasco da Gama does his 2nd voyage...in 1503 Affonso de Albuquerque, Francisco de Albuquerque, Antonio de Saldanha and others...

So by 1502 around 20-30 Portuguese ships have been already in the Indian Ocean.

Further, in 1494 (the year of Tordesilhas Treaty !)  when Pero da Covilha finally arrives by land to Ethiopia - he is returning already from India, when in Alexandria/Cairo he comes to know of Afonso de Paiva death (both sent by Dom Joao II). So the search for navigating charts and information about the Indian Ocean had been on already for few years before Cantino 1502 map time. Not to mention Infante Dom Pedro (older brother of Henry the Navigator) purchased "world" maps in Venice in the 1420's...

Also one should clearly note that when Vasco da Gama goes to India for the first time - "strangely enough" they took the best route along the Mozambique channel, showing some prior knowledge of winds and currents there...

Of all possible routes why did they pick up the best one at once and in a "single step" from 1488 Bartolomeu Dias expedition around Cape of Storms/Good Hope...

Well we know nothing about what happened in between those two voyages - except for the "Roteiro de Sofala" that mentions some Portuguese ship wrecks in the Mozambique Channel a few years before Vasco da Gama voyage...but that info is very "cloudy", based on some arabic/muslim non-reliable sources...as it seems...

Anyway why Vasco da Gama is selected to command the India voyage - when nothing is known about him before? And why we do not have any information on those 10 years? Good questions...

You may find a list-document (Torre do Tombo - Portuguese National Archives) of the many thousands of ships sent by Portugal to India, from 1497 till 1800 - with annual expeditions (in some years 2 or 3 different fleets...specially in the first 3 or 4 decades of Indian Ocean exploration) ...

Also Cantino map has a nice East coast of North America as you say. In Damiao Peres "Historia dos Descobrimentos Portugueses" you may read about a secret naval base King Dom Joao II had in Florida, around 1493 or so...to spy on Castilla/C. Colon activities in the area...this is based on some documents/exchanged letters of those times...I can double-check it...

Probably one of the Corte-Real brothers was already sailing from Florida to New Foundland around 1500 - so I read somewhere...

Remember that Sargacos (with a cedilla c, that I have not in this keyboard)   is a Portuguese word...as they were sailing in the Sargacos Sea by then, also looking for the mythical "Seven Cities" Island...where 7 Portuguese bishops...have escaped to, after the Muslim invasion of the Iberian Peninsula in the VII or VIII century...well Portugal did not exist then...so perhaps 7 Visigothic bishops and population would be more accurate to say.

The Seven Cities were located in many places so far - from Azores to New Foundland...Cabot many times said to have found "The Seven Cities" after returning from New Foundland around 1497 too...Diogo de Teive, Pero de Barcelos, Fernao Teles de Menezes, Fernao Dulmo, Joao Vaz Corte-Real, Joao Fernandes Lavrador - are also names associated with early Portuguese (and Bristish in some cases...) navigations in the west Atlantic...

Anyway probably Basques, Bretons and other fisherman where already on those waters for long too...

Some say Joao Fernandes Lavrador even attempted a colony in New Foundland, around his 1490-1492-1493 voyages...but for sure (King Dom Manuel documents) we only know about the failed (1 year long or more) colony attempt of Alvares Fagundes in 1520 (if memory serves)...in what was the last Portuguese effort of colonizing North-America...that was all under Spain Tordesilhas territory...to Portugal belonged Brazil only, in the Americas...

...in 1525 another Portuguese navigator (sailing to Spain)...Estevao Gomes (enemy and desertor of 1519-1520 Magalhaes fleet!), was then mapping all north-america south of Corte-Real land (this south of Lavrador)...and you could see all the North-America east coast with Portuguese navigators names/lands (I guess this appears in a Reinel map, or Vaz Dourado one...I forgot already...)...

Funny enough these are the times of Thomas More "Utopia" - a mythical island, found by an invented Portuguese sailor of name "Raphael Hythloday", companion of Vespucci. If memory serves this is also when John Rastell - married to a sister of More or so - attempts a colony (1516 ?...or a bit later...) in New Foundland...but things go quite bad...and even worse with his son's subsequent attempt (ending in cannibalism, etc.)...

Spain was stuck in Gulf of Mexico, from C. Colon time in 1492, way after till 1512 - still looking for India, or the Veragua Strait. In 1512 Portugal was already in the Pacific/Molucas area - Malaca was conquered in 1511 (memory serving...), Diu, Goa, etc. . Then in 1513 Balboa sees the Pacific for the Spanish and that changes completely the way of Spanish discoveries. With other details and plans before, another Portuguese sailor - Joao Dias de Solis - offers then to sail a Spanish fleet around South America, but he is eaten by cannibals in Solis river, later called La Plata by Cabot's son ( if memory serves...)...

As to the Kerguelen Islands and Darwin Peninsula - I do not know what to tell you, if indeed those are represented in the 1507 map.

Some Portuguese ships got out of route around the stormy Cape of Good Hope - that was how Diogo Dias (brother of Bartolomeu Dias - who died there in 1500's Cabral expedition) found Madagascar in August 1500, I believe...

But I have no information of any Portuguese sighting of Kerguelen...and really doubt about that.

All the Psitacorum Regio and "Terra de Vista copiosa de papagali" are always refered to SE of Good Hope...never so far as Kerguelen...

Vopelius has some other map where Terra Australis Incognita (that could be what you saw in Waldseemuller other map you mentioned - not Antarctica per se) is called "Terra de Sur"...I believe...so I have no idea from where Vopelius got that information nor the 1499 date I mentioned here before - in another map.

As to the Darwin Peninsula - in what is now Australia...well that is quite tricky...

It would seem quite reasonable to me to have both Chinese, Lequios and Javanese and Malayans in Australia before...but it seems we never got a clear map of such...

 >From Timor to Australia the distance is half that of continental Portugal to Madeira - so if anything one has to explain how the Portuguese *did not* sighted or actually found Australia (and clearly kept that as a secret!) ...

Specially when records of batimetry (systematic measurements of how deep was the ocean) in the Sea of Timor are known to date from those times...
(work of Prof. Luis Thomaz, in Portugal)...

Not mentioning the Dieppe maps, etc.

Still *if* anything Cristovao Mendonca discovery of Australia - and the Gulf of the Portuguese in Cook's New Zealand maps ! - can be traced to 1525 or so...

Gomes de Sequeira islands - and perhaps not Australia - could have been Palau instead, studying the reports of his voyage and the winds and currents in different times of the year (read Armando Cortesao - Os descobrimentos Portugueses - about that...)...

So I have no idea about the sources of the 1507 map - the only known older Portuguese sources have at least more 20 years...

Again, if indeed representing Darwin Peninsula - but I would not be surprised  if so...from other sources that not Portuguese...but maybe brought to Venice at some point from Asia...

We can not avoid common sense and evaluating how feasible such voyages would be - just because we have no documents to back it up...

Have a nice voyage Mr. Allen - across the USA and time-history!

Best wishes,

Paulo Afonso

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:21:30 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist <list-owner@maphist.nl>)
Subject: [MapHist] 18th century French map showing a battle in the Black Sea
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Not distributed automatically because the original subject started with "Help" - that is an administrative request. Thus: Never start a subject line of a maphist-message with "help". Peter.

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:42:43 -0400
From: "John W. Docktor" <docktor@earthlink.net> Subject: help identifing a map

I have been examining old maps in a local college library (Gettysburg College - they have a collection of over 425 maps - mainly 17-18 century), and there was only one I could not identify for them. It appears to be an 18th century French map, 58 x 86 cm, showing a battle with the Ottoman fleet in the Black Sea. An image of the map, with three detail images, can be found at http://home.cyberia.com/~jdocktor/Map/map.htm

Can anyone identify this map and its source? Sorry about the quality of the images - it was the best the college librarian could do with her hand held camera.

Thanks in advance,
John Docktor
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. Docktor
Phone: 717-846-8997         Fax: 717-845-9337

Cartography - Calendars of Events & Exhibitions: http://www.docktor.com/ Washington Map Society: http://www.washmap.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:21:53 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist <list-owner@maphist.nl>)
Subject: [MapHist] Atlas Blaeu-Van der Hem
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Non-member submission from ["Ellen Kempers" <info@hesdegraaf.com>]

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 16:08:11 +0200

Recently the 'Atlas Blaeu-Van der Hem' has been included in UNESCO's Memory of the World Register. On 11 March 2004 the Memory of the World Certificate was handed to the director of the Austrian National Library, Johanna Rachinger.

The 50-volume Atlas Blaeu-Van der Hem, housed in the Austrian National Library in Vienna, is often considered the most beautiful and remarkable atlas ever composed. Containing more than 2,400 maps, prints, and drawings it offers a pictorial encyclopedia of  seventeenth-century knowledge ranging from geography and topography to warfare and politics.
HES & De Graaf Publishers is currently publishing an annotated and illustrated catalogue of the Atlas Blaeu-Van der Hem. Three of the six volume series have been published. The fourth volume is in production (see: www.hesdegraaf.com <http://www.hesdegraaf.com/> ; section News).
UNESCO launched the Memory of the World programme in 1992. Its aims are to prevent the neglect and loss of our cultural heritage; to encourage the preservation of valuable archives and libraries and to ensure widespread access in the future.


Ellen Kempers
HES & DE GRAAF Publishers bv
Tuurdijk 16, 3997 MS 't Goy-Houten
The Netherlands
www.hesdegraaf.com
info@hesdegraaf.com
T + 31 (0) 30 6011955
F + 31 (0) 30 6011813


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: aemt2@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 12:35:10 +0100
To: lis-maps@jiscmail.ac.uk, carto-soc@sheffield.ac.uk, maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Anne Taylor <aemt2@cam.ac.uk>
Subject: [MapHist] Cambridge History of Cartography Seminar
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Dear All

Details of the next Cambridge [England] History of Cartography Seminar are posted below. Please address any queries to Tom.

Anne Taylor


>From: "Wesselow Dr T.P.C. De" <tpcd2@cam.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Cambridge History of Cartography Seminar
>Date: 16 Apr 2004 15:02:14 +0100
>
>
>Cambridge History of Cartography Seminar
>
>
>Dr Jean Michel Massing
>
>'The Lip-plated Africans in Pierre Desceliers's World-Map of 1550'
>
>
>Tuesday, 27 April, 5.00 p.m.
>
>Venue: Lecture Room 2, History of Art Dept., 1-5 Scroope Terrace, 
>Trumpington Street, Cambridge (near the Fitzwilliam Museum - which is 
>closed at present)

number 4 on the map at:
http://www.cam.ac.uk/map/v3/drawmap.cgi?mp=main;xx=1941;yy=1321;mt=c;tl=Department%20of%20History%20of%20Art

See also:
http://www.cam.ac.uk/cambuniv/visitors/


>Apologies for the rather late notice regarding this seminar. Please note 
>the change of venue, and hope to see you there,
>
>Tom de Wesselow.
>tpcd2@cam.ac.uk

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 07:43:36 -0400
From: Bert Johnson <mandraki@erols.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Prince Sydi
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.5 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Jens

Sale is a town on the Atlantic coast of Morocco which sits adjacent to the capital, Rabat.  The two are separated by the mouth of a river known as the Bou Regreg.  Sale is usually written with an accent ague over the e, but I don't now how to do that on email.  At any rate, the e is pronouced, creating two oral syllables, pronounced either Sallay or Sahllay, rather than a word that rhymes with sail.

Today Sale is a large suburb of Rabat, but until two centuries ago, Sale was much the predominant one of the pair, and they consituted a semi-autonomous city state.  Mallet has a city view of the pair bearing only Sale's name.  Sale was notorious in Europe and northwest Africa as the seat of very aggressive piracy.  One source says that between 1609 and 1616 alone, "the Sallee Rovers", as they were called in England, captured nearly 500 English trading ships, and this continued for decades.  Basically what they did was pick off European ships returning from West Africa and the New World.  They dealt in, among other things, European slaves captured from the ships they raided, and there is a scene in Robinson Crusoe in which Crusoe is taken as a prisoner to Sale. 
 That fits with your account of Sydi Abdullah having sent an envoy to Holland to discuss depredations from piracy.

I'm less clear on who Sydi Abdullah is.  His name in present references is almost certainly spelled Sidi rather than Sydi.  There are a lot of Sidi Abdallahs and Abdullahs in Moroccan history, indeed throughout northwest Africa.  The names are those of both persons and towns.  There was a Sidi Abdallah ben Hassoun from Sale.  He is regarded as the town's patron saint, and also the patron saint of voyageurs, especially sailors.  His shrine is the site of an annual pilgrimage on the eve of the birth of the Prophet Mohammed.  In recent years it has become something of a tourist event, as the pilgrims are dressed in pirate attire, carry candles and lanterns, etc.  The problem is that I can't pin down a date for his life.  I have seen one reference that described him as a 16th century figure, but that would not correspond to the dates you gave.  I'm none to certain about the accuracy of that source, however.  They may have said 16th century when they meant 1600s.  Given the similar name, the pirate theme, and the Sale location, I'm inclined to think this is probably the figure you're looking for, but I'm far from certain.

I hope that gives you a start, and that someone more conversant (and with a larger library) than I can take this a bit further.  I'd like to know the answer myself.

Bert

PS:  Popular historian Giles Milton [Nathaniel's Nutmeg, Big Chief Elizabeth, The Riddle and the Knight, etc] has a new book coming out entitled White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow and North Africa's One Million European Slaves.  I don't think it's out yet, but it may shed some light on all this.

Jens P. Bornholt wrote:

>Blaeu published sumptuously bound townbooks ("Toonel der Steden" 1649-51), a
>copy of which was presented to Prince Sydi Abdullah of Sale (????) when his
>envoy arrived in Holland to negotiate yet another peace treaty after the
>Dutch East India suffered losses from pirate's attacks.
>Can somebody tell me who this personage could have been?
>Jens P.Bornholt
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
>the views of the author.
>List Information: http://www.maphist.info
>
>  
>


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: vanderkr18@mail.vanderkrogt.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:08:21 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt <peter@vanderkrogt.net>)
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Prince Sydi
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Non-member submission from [brink@geog.uu.nl]  (Paul is subscribed with a different address)

Subject: Re: [MapHist] Prince Sydi


The best biographical source for diplomatic relations between the Netherlands and the world is: O. Schutte. Repertorium der buitenlandse vertegenwoordigers, residerende in Nederland (1584-1810) (Repertory for permanent representatives and envoyes delegated to the Northern Netherlands, 1584-1810). - The Hague : Martinus Nijhoff, 1983. The biographies of the Moroccan diplomats and envoyes appointed to the Netherlands are described on p. 577-578. However your prince Sydi is not mentioned there.

More information on the prince you will (probably) find in the dissertation by J.C. de Bakker. Slaves, arms, and Holy War : Moroccan policy vis-a&#768;-vis the Dutch Republic during the establishment of the Alawi&#772; dynasty (1660-1727). - Amsterdam : University of Amsterdam, 1991.

Paul van den Brink
Explokart Research Team for the history of Cartography University of Utrecht
The Netherlands

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 11:41:06 -0400
From: Ottomantom@cs.com
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: RE: [MapHist] Prince Sydi
X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0
X-AOL-IP: 128.175.241.8
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 

In the Encyclopaedia of Islam, vol. 8 p. 899, there is the following passage: ""The prohibition of corsair activity by the sultan Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah and the founding of the town of al-Sawira (Mogador), which attracted European commerce, delt a severe blow to its [Sale] maritime role." There is a bibliography for Sala.
Tom Goodrich

"Jens P. Bornholt" <borncafe@terra.com.gt> wrote:

>
>
>Blaeu published sumptuously bound townbooks ("Toonel der Steden" 1649-51), a
>copy of which was presented to Prince Sydi Abdullah of Sale (????) when his
>envoy arrived in Holland to negotiate yet another peace treaty after the
>Dutch East India suffered losses from pirate's attacks.
>Can somebody tell me who this personage could have been?
>Jens P.Bornholt
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
>the views of the author.
>List Information: http://www.maphist.info

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Jens P. Bornholt" <borncafe@terra.com.gt>
To: "Maphist" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Cc: "Lissa Hanckel" <esh@ufm.edu.gt>
Subject: [MapHist] Blaeu map production
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:57:04 -0600
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV>
<H2 style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN 
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes"><FONT size=2>"At its peak the Blaeu press managed to produce over 1 million impressions from 1,000 copper plates within four years" (Koeman, 1970).</FONT></SPAN></H2>
<H2 style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN 
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes"><FONT size=2>My question to fellow MapHists is: where was the market at that time for that amount of maps? Who would buy them, how did the market absorb this amount of maps in such a short time? Is Koeman's statement a verified fact?</FONT></SPAN></H2>
<H2 style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN 
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-no-proof: yes"><FONT size=2>Jens P.Bornholt</FONT></SPAN></H2></DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Jens P. Bornholt" <borncafe@terra.com.gt>
To: "Maphist" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Cc: "Lissa Hanckel" <esh@ufm.edu.gt>
Subject: [MapHist] blaeu as a spy
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:20:19 -0600
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<P><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">There is some information wrtitten on Blaeu's </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">activity in espionage (?). (see below).&nbsp;Is any of this availabke in more recent research or publications?</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">cf. 
Chr.F. Haje. De geheime correspondentie van Abraham de Wicquefort met den Franschen minister de Lionne (The secret correspondence of Abraham de Wicquefort (1598-1682) with the French secretary Hugues de Lionne Marquis de Berny (1611-1671)). - 's-Gravenhage : Martinus Nijhoff, 1908. (</SPAN><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place><st1:PlaceName><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Ph.D</SPAN></st1:PlaceName><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> </SPAN><st1:PlaceType><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">University</SPAN></st1:PlaceType></st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> of </SPAN><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Amsterdam</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">); <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Chr.F. 
Haje. De Oprechte Haarlemsche Courant en Michiel Adriaensz. de Ruyter (The Oprechte Haarlemsche Courant (the first newspaper of the world) and the Dutch naval officer Michiel Adriaensz. de Ruyter). - </SPAN><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Haarlem</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> : Enschedé, 1907. <BR>Dr. Paul van den Brink <BR>Explokart research group </SPAN><st1:place><st1:PlaceType><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">University</SPAN></st1:PlaceType><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> of </SPAN><st1:PlaceName><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Utrecht&nbsp; The Netherlands</SPAN></st1:PlaceName></st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Jens P.Bornholt<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Jens P. Bornholt" <borncafe@terra.com.gt>
To: "Maphist" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Cc: "Lissa Hanckel" <esh@ufm.edu.gt>
Subject: [MapHist] blaeu and his religion
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:25:03 -0600
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Is any information available in English, Spanish&nbsp;or German regarding Blaeu's religious beliefs? Or if the papers listed below are the most up to date, where can one obtain a copy (with translation?)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">cf. P. 
Visser. Godtslasterlijck ende pernicieus : de rol van boekdrukkers en boekverkopers in de verspreiding van dissidente religieuze en filosofische denkbeelden in </SPAN><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Nederland</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> in de tweede helft van de zeventiende eeuw. - (The importance of Dutch bookpublishers and booksellers for the dissemination of dissident religious and philosphic ideas during the second half of the 17th century). - [</SPAN><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Amsterdam</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">] : Vakgroep Boek- en Informatiewetenschap, 1995. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Henk Th. 
van Veen. Pieter Blaeu: lettere ai Fiorentini : Antonio Magliabechi, Leopoldo e Cosimo III de' Medici, e altri, 1660-1705 = Pieter Blaeu: letters to Florentines : Antonio Magliabechi, Leopoldo and Cosimo III de' Medici, and others, 1660-1705 / Alfonso Mirto &amp; Henk Th. van Veen; ed. con commento e saggio introduttivo in italiano e inglese Pieter Blaeu: letters to Florentines. - </SPAN><st1:place><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Firenze</SPAN></st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> : Istituto Universitario Olandese di Storia dell'Arte ;&nbsp; </SPAN><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Amsterdam</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> [etc.] : APA </SPAN><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Holland</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> University Press Maarssen, 1993. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Jens P.Bornholt<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: vanderkr18@mail.vanderkrogt.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 10:04:48 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Peter van der Krogt <peter@vanderkrogt.net>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Blaeu map production - as a spy - and his
  religion
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Jens,

(1) Blaeu map production

See my message to MapHist of 6 February 2004, "Blaeu's Atlas maior, how many copies were made? ".
According to my calculation, Blaeu made even more impressions than Koeman calculated.
Koeman's calculation and mine concern however only the impressions made for the Atlas maior, no other maps. Thus they did not have to find a market for a million maps, just for a few thousand Atlantes maiores...

Peter

At 01:57 19-4-2004, you wrote:


>
>"At its peak the Blaeu press managed to produce over 1 million impressions 
>from 1,000 copper plates within four years" (Koeman, 1970).
>
>
>
>My question to fellow MapHists is: where was the market at that time for 
>that amount of maps? Who would buy them, how did the market absorb this 
>amount of maps in such a short time? Is Koeman's statement a verified fact?
>

(2) Blaeu  as a spy

What is the relation between the two works by Haje and Blaeu?

Peter

(3) Blaeu and his religion

At 02:25 19-4-2004, you wrote:
>Is any information available in English, Spanish or German regarding 
>Blaeu's religious beliefs?

Does this question mean that literature in Dutch is of no value?

The literature in the different languages on Blaeu is numerous, I suppose you have already used the most common works as Keuning & Donkersloot-de Vrij (Willem Jansz. Blaeu : a biography and history of his work as a cartographer and publisher / by J. Keuning; revised and edited by Marijke Donkersloot-de Vrij. - Amsterdam : Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, [1973]. - xi, 164 p.)

You may also consult:

C. Koeman, Life and works of Willem Janszoon Blaeu : new contributions to the study of Blaeu, made during the last hundred years. - In: Imago Mundi 26(1972), p. 9-16.

One of the most important works for you is probably: H. de la Fontaine Verwey, In en om de Vergulde Sonnewyser . - Amsterdam : Nico Israel, 1979. - 256 p. - (Uit de Wereld van het Boek ; III). - includes 10 articles on the Blaeu publishing firm.

Further

Marijke Donkersloot-de Vrij, Drie generaties Blaeu : Amsterdamse cartografie en boekdrukkunst in de zeventiende eeuw. - Zutphen : Walburg Pers ; Amsterdam Rijksmuseum `Nederlands Scheepvaartmuseum', 1992. - 82 p.
H.Th. van Veen, Pieter Blaeu and Antonio Magliabechi. - In: Quaerendo 12(1982), p.130-158. (this will you give a short introduction to Van Veen's book).

And of course in the works on Blaeu's maps and atlases (among others by C. 
Koeman and Guenter Schilder) you will find many updated information.

Many of these references to Blaeu you will find in: P.C.J. van der Krogt, M.M.Th.L. Hameleers & P.P.W.J. van den Brink. 
Bibliografie van de Geschiedenis van de Kartografie van de Nederlanden = Bibliography of the History of Cartography of the Netherlands. Utrecht: HES Publishers, 1993. 418 pp.

Peter


>Or if the papers listed below are the most up to date, where can one 
>obtain a copy (with translation?)
>
>cf. P. Visser. Godtslasterlijck ende pernicieus : de rol van boekdrukkers 
>en boekverkopers in de verspreiding van dissidente religieuze en 
>filosofische denkbeelden in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = 
>"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Nederland in de tweede 
>helft van de zeventiende eeuw. - (The importance of Dutch bookpublishers 
>and booksellers for the dissemination of dissident religious and 
>philosphic ideas during the second half of the 17th century). - 
>[Amsterdam] : Vakgroep Boek- en Informatiewetenschap, 1995. 
><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
>
>Henk Th. van Veen. Pieter Blaeu: lettere ai Fiorentini : Antonio 
>Magliabechi, Leopoldo e Cosimo III de' Medici, e altri, 1660-1705 = Pieter 
>Blaeu: letters to Florentines : Antonio Magliabechi, Leopoldo and Cosimo 
>III de' Medici, and others, 1660-1705 / Alfonso Mirto & Henk Th. van Veen; 
>ed. con commento e saggio introduttivo in italiano e inglese Pieter Blaeu: 
>letters to Florentines. - Firenze : Istituto Universitario Olandese di 
>Storia dell'Arte ;  Amsterdam [etc.] : APA Holland University Press 
>Maarssen, 1993.
>
>Jens P.Bornholt



YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt
Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geo-sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115
3508 TC  UTRECHT, The Netherlands
e-mail: peter@vanderkrogt.net
Homepage: <http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/vanderkrogt> MapHist: <http://www.maphist.nl>
Genealogy: <http://www.vanderkrogt.net> Elementymology: <http://elements.vanderkrogt.net> Columbus Monuments: <http://columbus.vanderkrogt.net>

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY  

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 09:57:46 -0400
From: "Edward James Redmond" <ered@loc.gov>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] 18th century French map showing a battle in the
	Black Sea
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

John: 

Are parts of this manuscript?And the text is completely French?

Ed

Ed Redmond
Reference Specialist
Geography and Map Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave, SE
Washington, DC 20540-4650
(202) 707-8548
ered@loc.gov


>>> owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl 4/17/2004 4:21:30 AM >>> Not distributed automatically because the original subject started with

"Help" - that is an administrative request. Thus: Never start a subject

line of a maphist-message with "help". Peter.

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:42:43 -0400
From: "John W. Docktor" <docktor@earthlink.net> Subject: help identifing a map

I have been examining old maps in a local college library (Gettysburg College - they have a collection of over 425 maps - mainly 17-18 century),
and there was only one I could not identify for them. It appears to be an
18th century French map, 58 x 86 cm, showing a battle with the Ottoman fleet in the Black Sea. An image of the map, with three detail images, can
be found at http://home.cyberia.com/~jdocktor/Map/map.htm 

Can anyone identify this map and its source? Sorry about the quality of the
images - it was the best the college librarian could do with her hand held
camera.

Thanks in advance,
John Docktor
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. Docktor
Phone: 717-846-8997         Fax: 717-845-9337

Cartography - Calendars of Events & Exhibitions: http://www.docktor.com/ 
Washington Map Society: http://www.washmap.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Authentication-Warning: sq05.pol.net: nobody set sender to mcguirk1492@pol.net using -f
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 10:25:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [MapHist] Nolin Map of North America
From: <mcguirk1492@pol.net>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.7)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.4 required=5.0 

Dear fellow maphisters,
      Could any member of this list help me with a research project regarding this map? Do any of you know were one might find a copy of J.B. Nolin's map, "AMERIQUE/SEPTENTRIONALE/Divisée en ses principales/ Possessions et G.ds Peuples"? There was a copy noted in AMPR 1987 and possibly a second in 1988.
The reference there stated the was from Pufendorf's "Introdùction a l'Histoire general et politique de l'univers, 1743, Amsterdam". There is a copy of this work with that date in the PIASA Library, and, I have written them. There are other additions of this work, at least 1721 and 1753. A recent copy of this map, dated 1730 (obviously incorrect, as the text describes discoveries of 1741) states the map is "Pour servir à l'Introdùction a l'histoire Universelle da Baron de Puffendorf". Any assistance in tracking down copies (and various states) of this map and/or work would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you.

Don McGuirk



Don McGuirk


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Jens P. Bornholt" <borncafe@terra.com.gt>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Blaeu map production - as a spy - and his  religion
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 20:38:48 -0600
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.4 required=5.0 

Peter - may I return to this question? Is there any info as to the "market" for this amount of atlasses? I mean, apart from princes, kings, dukes and the like, of which there are only a relatively limited number, who else would buy "thousands" of maps or atlasses? How many captains of ships or businessmen, or "captains of industry" etc would be able to "consume" all of Blaeu's production? And presenting these atlasses as "gifts" does not sound like a healthy business practice in the long run. And why, for example, is the French volume of "Le Theatre du Monde" dedicated to Archduke Leopold-Wilhem, Archduke of Austria 1614-62 of all people?
Jens
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter van der Krogt" <peter@vanderkrogt.net> To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Sent: 19 April, 2004 2:04 AM
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Blaeu map production - as a spy - and his religion


> Jens,
>
> (1) Blaeu map production
>
> See my message to MapHist of 6 February 2004, "Blaeu's Atlas maior, how
> many copies were made? ".
> According to my calculation, Blaeu made even more impressions than Koeman
> calculated.
> Koeman's calculation and mine concern however only the impressions made for
> the Atlas maior, no other maps. Thus they did not have to find a market for
> a million maps, just for a few thousand Atlantes maiores...
>
> Peter
>
> At 01:57 19-4-2004, you wrote:
>
>
> >
> >"At its peak the Blaeu press managed to produce over 1 million impressions
> >from 1,000 copper plates within four years" (Koeman, 1970).
> >
> >
> >
> >My question to fellow MapHists is: where was the market at that time for
> >that amount of maps? Who would buy them, how did the market absorb this
> >amount of maps in such a short time? Is Koeman's statement a verified fact?
> >
>
> (2) Blaeu  as a spy
>
> What is the relation between the two works by Haje and Blaeu?
>
> Peter
>
> (3) Blaeu and his religion
>
> At 02:25 19-4-2004, you wrote:
> >Is any information available in English, Spanish or German regarding
> >Blaeu's religious beliefs?
>
> Does this question mean that literature in Dutch is of no value?
>
> The literature in the different languages on Blaeu is numerous, I suppose
> you have already used the most common works as Keuning & Donkersloot-de
> Vrij (Willem Jansz. Blaeu : a biography and history of his work as a
> cartographer and publisher / by J. Keuning; revised and edited by Marijke
> Donkersloot-de Vrij. - Amsterdam : Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, [1973]. - xi,
> 164 p.)
>
> You may also consult:
>
> C. Koeman, Life and works of Willem Janszoon Blaeu : new contributions to
> the study of Blaeu, made during the last hundred years. - In: Imago Mundi
> 26(1972), p. 9-16.
>
> One of the most important works for you is probably:
> H. de la Fontaine Verwey, In en om de Vergulde Sonnewyser . - Amsterdam :
> Nico Israel, 1979. - 256 p. - (Uit de Wereld van het Boek ; III). -
> includes 10 articles on the Blaeu publishing firm.
>
> Further
>
> Marijke Donkersloot-de Vrij, Drie generaties Blaeu : Amsterdamse
> cartografie en boekdrukkunst in de zeventiende eeuw. - Zutphen : Walburg
> Pers ; Amsterdam Rijksmuseum `Nederlands Scheepvaartmuseum', 1992. - 82 p.
> H.Th. van Veen, Pieter Blaeu and Antonio Magliabechi. - In: Quaerendo
> 12(1982), p.130-158. (this will you give a short introduction to Van Veen's
> book).
>
> And of course in the works on Blaeu's maps and atlases (among others by C.
> Koeman and Guenter Schilder) you will find many updated information.
>
> Many of these references to Blaeu you will find in:
> P.C.J. van der Krogt, M.M.Th.L. Hameleers & P.P.W.J. van den Brink.
> Bibliografie van de Geschiedenis van de Kartografie van de Nederlanden =
> Bibliography of the History of Cartography of the Netherlands. Utrecht: HES
> Publishers, 1993. 418 pp.
>
> Peter
>
>
> >Or if the papers listed below are the most up to date, where can one
> >obtain a copy (with translation?)
> >
> >cf. P. Visser. Godtslasterlijck ende pernicieus : de rol van boekdrukkers
> >en boekverkopers in de verspreiding van dissidente religieuze en
> >filosofische denkbeelden in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
> >"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Nederland in de tweede
> >helft van de zeventiende eeuw. - (The importance of Dutch bookpublishers
> >and booksellers for the dissemination of dissident religious and
> >philosphic ideas during the second half of the 17th century). -
> >[Amsterdam] : Vakgroep Boek- en Informatiewetenschap, 1995.
> ><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
> >
> >Henk Th. van Veen. Pieter Blaeu: lettere ai Fiorentini : Antonio
> >Magliabechi, Leopoldo e Cosimo III de' Medici, e altri, 1660-1705 = Pieter
> >Blaeu: letters to Florentines : Antonio Magliabechi, Leopoldo and Cosimo
> >III de' Medici, and others, 1660-1705 / Alfonso Mirto & Henk Th. van Veen;
> >ed. con commento e saggio introduttivo in italiano e inglese Pieter Blaeu:
> >letters to Florentines. - Firenze : Istituto Universitario Olandese di
> >Storia dell'Arte ;  Amsterdam [etc.] : APA Holland University Press
> >Maarssen, 1993.
> >
> >Jens P.Bornholt
>
>
>
> YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
> Dr Peter van der Krogt
> Map Historian, Explokart Research Program
> Faculty of Geo-sciences, University of Utrecht
> P.O. Box 80.115
> 3508 TC  UTRECHT, The Netherlands
> e-mail: peter@vanderkrogt.net
> Homepage: <http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/vanderkrogt>
> MapHist: <http://www.maphist.nl>
> Genealogy: <http://www.vanderkrogt.net>
> Elementymology: <http://elements.vanderkrogt.net>
> Columbus Monuments: <http://columbus.vanderkrogt.net>
>
> YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
> the views of the author.
> List Information: http://www.maphist.info


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Maria Lane" <marialane@mail.utexas.edu>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: [MapHist] maps of the planets?
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:07:04 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.5 required=5.0 

I am studying European and American maps of Mars made between 1875 and 1915 (the famous "canal maps"), and am trying to determine the extent of their popular dissemination and publication.  So far, I have found them in all the obvious places - scientific journals, popular books, newspapers, magazines - but I am guessing they might also have appeared in the ubiquitous world atlases of the period or in some small-distribution pamphlets.

Anyone know of any atlases/pamphlets published around the turn of the century that included a map of Mars or a text essay about its geography?
And has anyone seen Mars globes from this era?

Many thanks,
Maria Lane

-------
K. Maria D. Lane
Department of Geography
University of Texas at Austin
marialane@mail.utexas.edu
-------
57 Willes Road
Kentish Town, London NW5 3DN
tel. +44 (0)20 7916 8344

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Rodney Shirley" <rws@dial.pipex.com>
To: "maphist" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Cc: "peter vander krogt" <peter@vanderkrogt.net>
Subject: [MapHist] Re: Maphist
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:32:13 +0100
Organization: UUNET
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.4 required=5.0 

Dear Peter

Dear Peter

Here is the April 11th message which you say wasn't distributed tho I sent it to maphist@geog.uu.nl

Last week, at a small village book fair near where I live in Buckingham, England, I came across and then bought what seemed to be an uncommon map of part of Siberian Russia which I haven't been able to identify properly.

It is fairly large, 345 x 690 mm (13½" x 27"), and is a detailed printed map of the river systems of Lena, Aldan, Maja, Jodoma  from Jakutsk inland and the river Urak to Ochozk (Okhotsk) on the China Sea, or Sea of Perchine. The title and place names are in both Russian and French and the general style is consonant with around 1750.. Underneath the title is the statement 'Par un Anglois nommé William Walton qui en envoya l'original a Mr.Visher à Petersbourg le 15 fevrier 1743'.

Initially I thought it was one of the maps appearing in J N Delisle's Atlas Russicus but this is not so. The Englishman William Walton is not listed in Tooley's Dictionary, nor could I find any mention of him in the British Library, except for a brief mention in the Bagrow-Castner work on Russian cartography where he is noted as an aide to Bering on his Great Northern Expedition  1733-43 and to have surveyed the Kurile Islands.

Is anything else known of William Walton?  Is his original of Jakutsk and its rivers still in St.Petersburg? The printed map I have has vertical folds and thus might have come from a later book of travel.
Is such a work known? Did Walton make other maps?

I'd be grateful for any observations from maphistors.

Rodney Shirley
rws@dial.pipex.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter van der Krogt" <peter@vanderkrogt.net> To: "Rodney Shirley" <rws@dial.pipex.com> Sent: 21 April 2004 08:11
Subject: Re: Maphist


> Dear Rodney
>
> The 31 March message is distribred by MapHist, the 11 April one I haven't
> found in my MapHist archive. I don't know why it is not distributed.
Maybe
> you mistyped the address? Please try it again and send it cc. to
> peter@vanderkrogt.net, so when it is not distributed, I can check to find
> out what is the problem.
>
> with friendly greetings
>
> Peter
>
> At 22:22 20-4-2004, you wrote:
> >Dear Peter
> >
> >I am wondering if two recent message I sent to maphist (at your
> >addresss maphist@geog.uu.nl) have  actually got through as they don't
> >seem to have been disseminated.
>
>


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Angus Murray" <a.d.j.murray@ntlworld.com>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Re: Maphist
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:59:50 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 

Rodney,
Web references:

1) <>1739je27:Japan, Amatsu village, Awa Province (Chiba Prefecture).
Bering's second expedition was led by Martin Petrovich Spanberg (Danish), William Walton, and Aleksei Il'ich Chirikov. They located Japan & went ashore briefly. Spanberg, Walton & Chirikov reported, but they were not believed back home

2) In regard to Russia, with Alexis Tschirikof, having Behring under his command; with Paulutski, whose expedition advanced in 1751 beyond the limits of the ice-pack; with Capt. Martin Spangberg, and Lieut. William Walton, who dared to go into these unknown parts in 1739, she had taken a notable part in the search across the gulf which separates Asia and America.

3) HISTORY OF PACIFIC NORTHWEST - OREGON AND WASHINGTON.
     On the 17th of April, 1732, the Russian government issued orders "to make voyages as well eastward to the continent of America, as southward to Japan, and to discover if possible at the same time, through the frozen sea, the north passage, which had been so frequently attempted by the English and Dutch." Behring, now a commander,- Spangberg and Tschirikow, captains, were assigned to the service. Müller volunteered to accompany as far as Siberia, to describe the civil history of that region, the manners, customs and traditions of that people. Professors Gmelin, Louis de Lisle de Croyere and Steller were of the scientific corps. While the vessels were being built for voyages to Northwest America, the coats of Kamtchatka and northwest Asia were thoroughly examined.

     In 1738, Captain Martin Spangberg examined the Kurili Islands. In 1739, Spanberg, in the St. Michael, Walton, in the double shallop, the Gabriel and a small yacht, made the voyage to Japan. The building and fitting out of Spangberg's ship delayed the expedition to Northwest America. Two ships, the St. Paul and St. Peter, were built at Okhotsk for the voyage of discovery.
The smaller vessel was designed for a crew of seventy men. The St. Paul was commanded by Behring, the St. Peter by Captain Alexer Tschirikow. In September they left Okhotsk to winter in Awatscha Bay. George William Steller, as physician and naturalist, and Louis de Lisle de la Croyere as astronomer, accompanied. They sailed from Awatscha Bay June 4, 1741. The vessels remained in company till the 20th of June, when they separated in a storm. Attempt to find each other having failed, each sailed easterly to reach the American continent. Müller writes:

     "Nothing particular happened till the 18th of July, when the captain-commander (Behring), after having given orders for steering more and more northerly, got sight of the continent of America in fifty-eight degrees, twenty-eight minutes north latitude. Captain Tschirikow reached the same coast three days before, viz.: on the 15th of July, in fifty-six north latitude. The coast made by the latter was steep and rocky, and he anchored at some distance from the shore. To examine the country, as well as to obtain a supply of water, Tschirikow dispatched his mate with ten well-armed men. They rowed into a bay behind a small cape, but not returning to the ship after a lapse of several days, it was surmised that the boat might have been disabled. On the 21st of July, the boatswain with six men, including carpenters, together with necessary materials, were sent to their assistance. Neither boat returned. The next day two canoes approached from the land. Expecting the return of their mission companions, all were on deck to greet them. The Indians, as they proved to be, still a great distance off, seeing the Russians so numerous, ceased rowing, stood up, and crying out with a loud voice, 'Agai, Agai!' speedily returned towards the shore.
Tschirikow had no more small boats and was unable to approach nearer the shore with the ship. A strong west wind arising, he was compelled to get clear of the rocky coast. He again stood inshore as soon as it was safe, to the place where his men had bone. But he never saw nor head anything of them. The officers held a council July 27th and resolved to return at once to Kamtchatka. On the 9th of October they entered Awatscha Bay. Of the seventy men with which they sailed twenty-one had died. M. de Lisle de la Croyere, who had been in a lingering condition, impatient to be landed, fell dead upon the deck on the arrival of the ship in port. Of the fate of the two crews nothing was ever definitely known (1).

     (1) Chevalier de Poletica, Russian Minister at Washington in 1822, in a dispatch to the American Secretary of State, says that, in 1789, the Spanish ship San Carlos, commanded by de Aro, found in the latitude fifty-eight and fifty-nine degrees, "Russian establishments to the number of eight consisting in the whole of twenty families and four hundred and sixty-two individuals. These were the descendants of the companions of Captain Tschirikow, who were supposed till then to have perished."



Regards Angus Murray


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodney Shirley" <rws@dial.pipex.com> To: "maphist" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Cc: "peter vander krogt" <peter@vanderkrogt.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 10:32 PM Subject: [MapHist] Re: Maphist


> Dear Peter
>
> Dear Peter
>
> Here is the April 11th message which you say wasn't distributed tho I
> sent it to maphist@geog.uu.nl
>
> Last week, at a small village book fair near where I live in
> Buckingham, England, I came across and then bought what seemed to be
> an uncommon map of part of Siberian Russia which I haven't been able
> to identify properly.
>
> It is fairly large, 345 x 690 mm (13½" x 27"), and is a detailed
> printed map of the river systems of Lena, Aldan, Maja, Jodoma  from
> Jakutsk inland and the river Urak to Ochozk (Okhotsk) on the
> China Sea, or Sea of Perchine. The title and place names are in both
> Russian and French and the general style is consonant with around
> 1750.. Underneath the title is the statement 'Par un Anglois nommé
> William Walton qui en envoya l'original a Mr.Visher à Petersbourg le
> 15 fevrier 1743'.
>
> Initially I thought it was one of the maps appearing in J N Delisle's
> Atlas Russicus but this is not so. The Englishman William Walton is
> not listed in Tooley's Dictionary, nor could I find any mention of him
> in the British Library, except for a brief mention in the
> Bagrow-Castner work on Russian cartography where he is noted as an
> aide to Bering on his Great Northern Expedition  1733-43 and to have
> surveyed the Kurile Islands.
>
> Is anything else known of William Walton?  Is his original of Jakutsk
> and its rivers still in St.Petersburg? The printed map I have has
> vertical folds and thus might have come from a later book of travel.
> Is such a work known? Did Walton make other maps?
>
> I'd be grateful for any observations from maphistors.
>
> Rodney Shirley
> rws@dial.pipex.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter van der Krogt" <peter@vanderkrogt.net>
> To: "Rodney Shirley" <rws@dial.pipex.com>
> Sent: 21 April 2004 08:11
> Subject: Re: Maphist
>
>
> > Dear Rodney
> >
> > The 31 March message is distribred by MapHist, the 11 April one I
> haven't
> > found in my MapHist archive. I don't know why it is not distributed.
> Maybe
> > you mistyped the address? Please try it again and send it cc. to
> > peter@vanderkrogt.net, so when it is not distributed, I can check to
> find
> > out what is the problem.
> >
> > with friendly greetings
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > At 22:22 20-4-2004, you wrote:
> > >Dear Peter
> > >
> > >I am wondering if two recent message I sent to maphist (at your
> > >addresss maphist@geog.uu.nl) have  actually got through as they
> don't
> > >seem to have been disseminated.
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
> the views of the author.
> List Information: http://www.maphist.info
>

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Angus Murray" <a.d.j.murray@ntlworld.com>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Re: Maphist
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:20:04 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.8 required=5.0 

Rodney, see also:

http://www.aquilabooks.com/nico/nico.htm

BURNEY, James - BA, vol. 49 - A Chronological History of the North-Eastern Voyages of Discovery; and of the early Eastern Navigations of the Russians.
London, 1819. (1969). 22.5 x 14 cm. 318 pp., with 2 fold. maps. Simile vellum. The work contains accounts of voyages by the English, Dutch, Danes and Russians, in search of the North-east passage to India and China, Kamchatka, and discoveries in the Polar Seas. The Russian accounts relate among many others to the Spangberg and Walton voyages to Japan, the voyages of Bering and Tscherikow, and those to the Aleutian Islands, the N.W. coast of America, etc. see prices

Also:
http://www.hf.uio.no/iks/ariadne/Idehistorie/frankenstein/walton/tema4/t4_wa ltons_reise.htm


Den virkelige Walton
Som en kuriositet kan det nevnes at det i virkeligheten fantes en lieutenant Walton som dro på arktisk oppdagelsesferd. En kaptein Spangberg i skipet St.
Michael fra Arkangelsk forlot Kamtschatka 22. mai 1739. Spangbergs mål var å finne Japan, på den tiden visste ingen europeere den relative beliggenheten til Kamtschatka og Japan. Lieutenant Walton ble med på denne ekspedisjonen fra Kurilene.

and:

http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/geohist/0303.html

<i>Stillahafsexpeditionerna.</i> 1) Enligt planen skulle SPANGBERG undersöka Kurilerna och kringsegla Nippon samt sålunda sammanknyta ryssarnes och holländarnes upptäckter i dessa trakter. För denna expedition lät kapten Spangberg i Ochotsk bygga tre fartyg, öfver hvilka befälet fördes af Spangberg, löjtnant WALTON och midshipsman SCHELTINGA. Först år 1738 kunde upptäcktsresan börja. Denna sommar kringseglade han 31 öar frän Kamtschatkas södra spets till ön Nadeshda eller Urup (45° 30') (Vries' Kompagnienland). Därpå återvände han till sin utgångspunkt Boljscherjezk på västra sidan af Kamtschatka. I maj 1739 lopp man åter ut, men tog från Kurilersundet kurs mot syd-sydost för att efterspana »Gamalandet», och de öfriga legendariska ögrupper, som voro tecknade på de l'Isles karta. Denna sydliga kurs höll man till 42° n. br., men då man icke såg något land, böjde man af mot sydväst och väst för att angöra Japans kust. Härunder smög sig Walton ifrån de andra och följde Nippons kust till 33°, medan Spangberg själf endast undersökte området mellan 39 och 37 1/2°. Både han och Walton blefvo mycket vänligt mottagna af japanerna, där de landade. Han sökte kartlägga Jesso och Syd-Kurilerna, men storm och dimma gjorde detta mycket svårt, enär det merendels var omöjligt att se kusten. Detta förklarar, att Spångberg på sin karta sönderstyckar Jesso i tre öar. På denna ö gjorde han bekantskap med det egendomliga ainofolket, hvars mest framträdande karaktersdrag han utförligt beskrifver. I slutet af augusti återkom han till Ochotsk. Mer än ett rekognosceringsarbete var det icke Spangberg utförde, men dock hafva hans båda resor utredt uppfattningen om Kurilergruppen, öfver hvars norra öar han gifvit en korrekt framställning, och han har äfven ådagalagt ohållbarheten af den fantastiska kartbild, som de l'Isle och andra gjort af trakterna öster om Ochotska hafvet. Dessa vackra resultat af hans upptäckter blefvo dock förnekade och betviflade, så att senaten gaf honom befallning att göra om resan. Denna sin sista expedition företog han 1742, men fartyget blef snart så läck, att han måste vända om, och företaget blef alldeles resultatlöst

regards Angus Murray
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodney Shirley" <rws@dial.pipex.com> To: "maphist" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Cc: "peter vander krogt" <peter@vanderkrogt.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 10:32 PM Subject: [MapHist] Re: Maphist


> Dear Peter
>
> Dear Peter
>
> Here is the April 11th message which you say wasn't distributed tho I
> sent it to maphist@geog.uu.nl
>
> Last week, at a small village book fair near where I live in
> Buckingham, England, I came across and then bought what seemed to be
> an uncommon map of part of Siberian Russia which I haven't been able
> to identify properly.
>
> It is fairly large, 345 x 690 mm (13½" x 27"), and is a detailed
> printed map of the river systems of Lena, Aldan, Maja, Jodoma  from
> Jakutsk inland and the river Urak to Ochozk (Okhotsk) on the
> China Sea, or Sea of Perchine. The title and place names are in both
> Russian and French and the general style is consonant with around
> 1750.. Underneath the title is the statement 'Par un Anglois nommé
> William Walton qui en envoya l'original a Mr.Visher à Petersbourg le
> 15 fevrier 1743'.
>
> Initially I thought it was one of the maps appearing in J N Delisle's
> Atlas Russicus but this is not so. The Englishman William Walton is
> not listed in Tooley's Dictionary, nor could I find any mention of him
> in the British Library, except for a brief mention in the
> Bagrow-Castner work on Russian cartography where he is noted as an
> aide to Bering on his Great Northern Expedition  1733-43 and to have
> surveyed the Kurile Islands.
>
> Is anything else known of William Walton?  Is his original of Jakutsk
> and its rivers still in St.Petersburg? The printed map I have has
> vertical folds and thus might have come from a later book of travel.
> Is such a work known? Did Walton make other maps?
>
> I'd be grateful for any observations from maphistors.
>
> Rodney Shirley
> rws@dial.pipex.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter van der Krogt" <peter@vanderkrogt.net>
> To: "Rodney Shirley" <rws@dial.pipex.com>
> Sent: 21 April 2004 08:11
> Subject: Re: Maphist
>
>
> > Dear Rodney
> >
> > The 31 March message is distribred by MapHist, the 11 April one I
> haven't
> > found in my MapHist archive. I don't know why it is not distributed.
> Maybe
> > you mistyped the address? Please try it again and send it cc. to
> > peter@vanderkrogt.net, so when it is not distributed, I can check to
> find
> > out what is the problem.
> >
> > with friendly greetings
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > At 22:22 20-4-2004, you wrote:
> > >Dear Peter
> > >
> > >I am wondering if two recent message I sent to maphist (at your
> > >addresss maphist@geog.uu.nl) have  actually got through as they
> don't
> > >seem to have been disseminated.
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
> the views of the author.
> List Information: http://www.maphist.info
>

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:09:54 -0800
From: Dee Longenbaugh <deelong@alaska.com>
Subject: [MapHist] Re: Walton
X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by randy.eatserver.nl id i3M2Cvm09406
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.3 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Dear Rodney,
	The second expedition of Vitus Bering was three-pronged. 
Walton was a captain on the portion sent to explore Japan and the Kurile Islands. The second group explored Kamchatka (the Siberian peninsula), and the third, Bering and Alexei Chirikov (spelled in various ways) sailed to Alaska and glory.
	[see Muller, Gerhard Friedrich,translated with commentary by Carol Urness. BERING'S VOYAGES: THE REPORTS FROM RUSSIA. pp. 67, 80, 89, 90. 92-95]
	Although Spanberg, (Walton's co-captain) and Walton submitted excellent charts of Japan and that area to the Academy, they were not believed as their latitudes were considered too radically different from the perceived locations. That later changed as their correctness became apparent.
	As Walton had no connection with the Siberian portion of the Great Northern Expedition, as it was officially named, I can hazard a guess.
	A J. Fischer was one of the group, along with Gerhard Muller and several others, assigned to survey in Siberia, so perhaps: A. 
Walton was mistakenly given credit for a map by Fischer: or B. 
somehow Walton submitted a map actually made by Fischer. 1743 was the official date of the end of the Great Northern Expedition.
	Otherwise, there is no connection I can find between Walton and Siberia in my fairly extensive library of material on the early exploration of Siberia and Alaska.
	An interesting little puzzle.
	Dee

At 10:32 PM +0100 4/21/04, Rodney Shirley wrote:
>Dear Peter
>
>Dear Peter
>
>Here is the April 11th message which you say wasn't distributed tho I
>sent it to maphist@geog.uu.nl
>
>Last week, at a small village book fair near where I live in
>Buckingham, England, I came across and then bought what seemed to be
>an uncommon map of part of Siberian Russia which I haven't been able
>to identify properly.
>
>It is fairly large, 345 x 690 mm (13¦" x 27"), and is a detailed
>printed map of the river systems of Lena, Aldan, Maja, Jodoma  from
>Jakutsk inland and the river Urak to Ochozk (Okhotsk) on the
>China Sea, or Sea of Perchine. The title and place names are in both
>Russian and French and the general style is consonant with around
>1750.. Underneath the title is the statement 'Par un Anglois nommé
>William Walton qui en envoya l'original a Mr.Visher à Petersbourg le
>15 fevrier 1743'.
>
>Initially I thought it was one of the maps appearing in J N Delisle's
>Atlas Russicus but this is not so. The Englishman William Walton is
>not listed in Tooley's Dictionary, nor could I find any mention of him
>in the British Library, except for a brief mention in the
>Bagrow-Castner work on Russian cartography where he is noted as an
>aide to Bering on his Great Northern Expedition  1733-43 and to have
>surveyed the Kurile Islands.
>
>Is anything else known of William Walton?  Is his original of Jakutsk
>and its rivers still in St.Petersburg? The printed map I have has
>vertical folds and thus might have come from a later book of travel.
>Is such a work known? Did Walton make other maps?
>
>I'd be grateful for any observations from maphistors.
>
>Rodney Shirley
>rws@dial.pipex.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Peter van der Krogt" <peter@vanderkrogt.net>
>To: "Rodney Shirley" <rws@dial.pipex.com>
>Sent: 21 April 2004 08:11
>Subject: Re: Maphist
>
>
>>  Dear Rodney
>>
>>  The 31 March message is distribred by MapHist, the 11 April one I
>haven't
>>  found in my MapHist archive. I don't know why it is not distributed.
>Maybe
>>  you mistyped the address? Please try it again and send it cc. to
>>  peter@vanderkrogt.net, so when it is not distributed, I can check to
>find
>>  out what is the problem.
>>
>>  with friendly greetings
>>
>>  Peter
>>
>>  At 22:22 20-4-2004, you wrote:
>>  >Dear Peter
>>  >
>>  >I am wondering if two recent message I sent to maphist (at your
>>  >addresss maphist@geog.uu.nl) have  actually got through as they
>don't
>>  >seem to have been disseminated.
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
>the views of the author.
>List Information: http://www.maphist.info


-- 
  The Observatory, ABAA
200 North Franklin Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
907/586-9676
fax 907/586-9606
deelong@alaska.com
http://www.observatorybooks.com
Since 1977
_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Jckd30@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:54:07 EDT
Subject: Re: [MapHist] maps of the planets?
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.9 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> With respect to Ms. Lane's email, which requests information on Mars globes dating to the period 1875-1915, I can recommend the following resources:<BR> <BR>
(A)&nbsp; Mond- und Marsgloben.&nbsp; Internationale Coronelli Gesellschaft fur Globen und Instrumentkunde:&nbsp; Vienna, 1982 (This publication is a special offprint which was distributed to subscribers of the periodical "Der Globusfreund")<BR> --This booklet includes photographs and brief descriptions of (1) a 17 cm diameter Mars globe, dating to 1898, by H. Albrecht and (2) a 15 cm diameter Mars globe by Camille Flammarion, dating to 1896.<BR> <BR>
(B)&nbsp; The World In Your Hands.&nbsp; Christies:&nbsp; London, circa 1994.<BR> --Item 6.17 describes the Flammarion 15 cm Mars globe, with color photo<BR> <BR>
(C)&nbsp; <A HREF="Http://www.palinurusbooks.com">Http://www.palinurusbooks.com</A><BR> --At this website there was once a large color photo and lengthy description of a large manuscript Mars globe, circa 1912, constructed by a Danish female astronomer whose name escapes me.&nbsp; I could not find the listing today when I visited the above-listed website, but contacting the owner of the website might yield further information.<BR> <BR>
Ms. Lane, if either items (A) or (B) interest you and you are unable to find copies at a local library, I will be happy to send photocopies or digital images in the post.<BR> <BR>
Regards to all,<BR>
Jaron Davis<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 4/21/04 9:07:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, marialane@mail.utexas.edu writes:<BR> <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">And has anyone seen Mars globes from this era?<BR> <BR>
Many thanks,<BR>
Maria Lane<BR>
<BR>
-------<BR>
K. Maria D. Lane<BR>
Department of Geography<BR>
University of Texas at Austin<BR>
marialane@mail.utexas.edu<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Cartographics" <Carto@tesco.net>
To: "Maphist@Geog. Uu. Nl" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>,
   "Maps and Air Photo Systems Forum" <MAPS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: [MapHist] History of the New York Canals, 1905
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:50:21 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.1 required=5.0 

I was fortunate recently to complete a set of Noble E. Whitford's work by acquisition of the second volume for the Canalmaps Archive.  However, it is missing the two maps from the pocket;
- Canals & Navigable Rivers of the United States and Canada - Comparison of Profiles of the New York State Barge Canal and of various Railroads....
Can anyone advise me if online scans of these two items can be found anywhere the web, or suggest where I might be able to obtain photocopies?
Richard Dean

From:  Cartographics, 49 Grange Road, Biddulph, Stoke on Trent ST8 7RY, UK.
Out of print maps and plans, UK/worldwide.  Established 1969.  E-mail Maps@cartographics.co.uk  Phone 01782-513449  Website www.cartographics.co.uk

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:00:36 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist <list-owner@maphist.nl>)
Subject: [MapHist] Nolin Map of North America
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.2 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Non-member submission from [catherine.hofmann2@bnf.fr]  0 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:13:05 +020o


Dear McGuirk,

You will find a map of Am=E9rique septentrionale by "Nolin le fils" wit= h a
title a few different in the following book :

Methode  Geographique. - A Paris Chez I.B Nolin sur le Quay de l'Horlog= e du
Palais  a  l'Enseigne  de  la  Place  des  Victoires. Avec Privilege du=
  Roy
[1713]. - 1 vol., p. de t., 20 pl. (10 fig. astron., 7 cartes, 3 fig.) = ; 20
x 15 cm.
|---------+------+-----------------------------------------------------= ---------------------|
|         |      |                                                     =
                      |
| [15]    |      | Amerique  Septentrionale  Divis=E9e en ses Regions e= t Principaux Peuples / |
|         |      | Dress=E9e  Par  I.B.  Nolin le fils. - Echelle de 40= 0 Lie=FCes [=3D 4,3 cm]. - |
|         |      | AParis [A dans P] chez la Veuve Nolin. - 14,5 x 18 c= m.                   |
|         |      |                                                     =
                      |
|---------+------+-----------------------------------------------------= ---------------------|



There is no date on the title page and only a plate is dated : Le Royaume de France Divis=E9 en ses Gouvernements de Provinces et Dres= s=E9 sur
les  dernieres Observations et Memoires / Par I.B. Nolin le Fils. - Ech= elle
de  50  Lieues Communes de France =E0 25 au Degrez [=3D 2,9 cm]. - A Pa= ris Chez
la Veuve Nolin sur le Quay de l'Horloge du Palais. 1713. - 14 x 18 cm.

This book is quite rare : you will find a copy in the British Library (= Maps
C.21. a.27).

Hoping this information would be useful,

Catherine Hofmann,
Map curator
Biblioth=E8que nationale de France

---------------------- Envoy=E9e par H=E9l=E8ne RICHARD/606/DCS/BnF le = 20/04/2004
09:36 ---------------------------


<mcguirk1492@pol.net>@pop.geog.uu.nl le 19/04/2004 16:25:20

Veuillez r=E9pondre =E0 maphist@geog.uu.nl

Envoy=E9 par :      owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl


Pour : <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
cc :
Objet :     [MapHist] Nolin Map of North America


Dear fellow maphisters,
       Could any member of this list help me with a research project
       regarding this
map? Do any of you know were one might find a copy of J.B. Nolin's map,=

"AMERIQUE/SEPTENTRIONALE/Divis=E9e en ses principales/ Possessions et G= .ds
Peuples"? There was a copy noted in AMPR 1987 and possibly a second in 1988.
The reference there stated the was from Pufendorf's "Introd=F9ction a l'Histoire
general et politique de l'univers, 1743, Amsterdam". There is a copy of=

this
work with that date in the PIASA Library, and, I have written them. The= re
are
other additions of this work, at least 1721 and 1753. A recent copy of = this
map, dated 1730 (obviously incorrect, as the text describes discoveries=
  of
1741) states the map is "Pour servir =E0 l'Introd=F9ction a l'histoire Universelle
da Baron de Puffendorf". Any assistance in tracking down copies (and various
states) of this map and/or work would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you.

Don McGuirk



Don McGuirk


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for=

the views of the author.
  List Information: http://www.maphist.info

=

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:02:22 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist <list-owner@maphist.nl>)
Subject: [MapHist] Conference "Maps and Images", Zurich, May 14-15, 2004
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Non-member submission from ["Conference \"Maps and Images\"" <maps@oriental.unizh.ch>]
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:33:13 +0200 (MEST)

Conference "Maps and Images: How They Have Transmitted Visual Knowledge Along the Silk Road"

Zurich, Switzerland, May 14-15, 2004, www.ori.unich.ch/maps



CONFERENCE THEME:

Maps and images have provided a unique access to many scholarly  domains as well as diverse literary and visual genres. The conference participants will investigate the topics related to the transmission of  representation of space along the Silk Road. "Visual knowledge" has been chosen as the central theme to encourage comparisons in methodological approaches across disciplines such as art history, Asian studies, astronomy, cartography, cultural studies, geography, history of religion, history of science, Islamic studies, Medieval studies, travel literature, etc. While scholars have thoroughly studied the transmission of texts across cultures, a  lot remains to be discovered on the ways in which visual representations  have been copied, forged, or adapted to new circumstances.

For two thousand years, the Silk Road has been the most important connection between the Far East, the Middle East and Europe. This  network of commercial routes and prosperous states has allowed the diffusion of complex representations, such as city and country maps, landscape paintings and drawings that have shaped the perceptions of space and time. Astronomical and mathematical sketches have deeply influenced our understanding of the cosmos. Texts and images of deities and holy men have merged into many religious traditions. The Silk Road can therefore offer fascinating examples for the study of the transmission of visual knowledge.

The conference program includes not only Chinese and Islamic, but also Mongol and Tibetan, Central Asian, Byzantine, Western-Medieval and Western travel studies. Social events and time-breaks will facilitate informal  exchange during the conference.

Please check the conference program website (www.ori.unizh.ch/maps) for titles, abstracts and updates.


REGISTRATION OF PARTICIPANTS:

To encourage discussion, registered participants will receive the paper drafts in advance and may join the conference social events. Registration fees are 50 Swiss Francs for non-students  and 15 Swiss Francs for students. Participation is free.

For registration, send a message to: maps{at}oriental.unizh.ch.


PROGRAM

Conference opening:
Hans-Ulrich Feldmann (Swiss Society of Cartography) Ulrich Rudolph (Institute of Oriental Studies, University of Zurich)


Panel A. Paintings and Drawings

Friday morning, May 14, 2004, 9.15-12.30 h University of Zurich, Kollegiengebaeude 2, Karl Schmid-Strasse 4, 8006 Zurich, Room KO2-F-152

Chair: Robert Gassmann (Institute of East Asian Studies, University of Zurich)

1. Jeong-Hee Lee-Kalisch (Korean Studies, East Asian Seminar, Freie Universitaet Berlin):
Korean Art

2. Nicolas Zufferey (Program of Chinese Studies, University of Geneva): "Traces of the Silk Road in Han Dynasty Iconography: Questions and Hypotheses"

3. Natasha Heller (East Asian Languages and Civilizations Department, Harvard University):
"Visualizing Pilgrimage and Mapping Experience: Mount Wutai on the Silk Road"

4. Dorothy C. Wong (McIntire Department of Art, University of Virginia): "The Mapping of Sacred Space: Buddhist Cosmography in Dunhuang Mural Paintings"

5. D. Neil Schmid (Department of Philosophy and Religion, North Carolina State University):
"Imaging Ritual/Space and the Narrative Negotiation of Identities along the Silk Road"

6. Dickran Kouymjian (Armenian Studies Program, California State University, Fresno):
"The Intrusion of Far Eastern imagery in Medieval Armenia: Political and Cultural Exchange Along the Silk Route"


Panel B. Maps up to the 15th Century

Friday afternoon, May 14, 2004, 14.00-17.30 h University of Zurich, Kollegiengebaeude 2, Karl Schmid-Strasse 4, 8006 Zurich, Room KO2-F-152

Chair: Valerie Hansen (History Department, Yale University)

7. Karen C. Pinto (American University of Beirut): "Alternate Influences: What Medieval Islamic Cartography Owes to the East"

8. Yossef Rapoport (Oriental Institute, Oxford University): "The Book of Curiosities: A Medieval Islamic View of the East"

9. Andreas Kaplony (Institute of Oriental Studies, University of Zurich): "The Map of Mahmud al-Kashghari"

10. Peter-Karl Soustal (Tabula Imperii Byzantini, Austrian Academy of Sciences, Vienna):
The Byzantines and their Maps

11. Sonja Brentjes (Max Planck Institute for the History of Science, Berlin):
"Revisiting Italian and Catalan Portolan Charts: Do they Contain Visual Elements of Asian Provenance?"

12. Jason Neelis (Department of Religion, University of Florida): "Pathways to the Silk Routes as Marked by Buddhist Images and Inscriptions from Northern Pakistan"


Panel C. Maps Since the 16th Century

Saturday morning, May 15, 2004, 9.00-12.30 h University of Zurich, Kollegiengebaeude 2, Karl Schmid-Strasse 4, 8006 Zurich, Room KO2-F-152

Chair: Caverlee Cary (Electronic Cultural Atlas Initiative and Geographic Information Science Center, University of California, Berkeley)

13. Sophie Linon-Chipon (Center for Travel Literature Studies, Paris-Sorbonne University):
"The Maps in the Travel Accounts of the Maritime Spice Route in the 17th and 18th Centuries"

14. Kathryn A. Ebel (Department of Geography, Ohio Wesleyan  University): "The Silk Roads and the Spatial Imaginary of the Ottoman Empire"

15. Shamsiddin Kamoliddin (Institute of History, Uzbekistan Academy of Sciences, Tashkent):
"Abraham Maas' Map and the Evolution of Historical Macrotoponymy of Central Asia"

16. Karenina Kollmar-Paulenz (Institute for the Science of Religion, University of Bern):
"Mongol Maps since the 18th Century"

17. Elio Brancaforte (Department of Germanic and Slavic Studies, Tulane University):
"Representative Space: German Baroque Depictions of the Safavid Empire"

18. Philippe Foret (Institute of Cartography, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology at Zurich):
"The Mapping of the Silk Road by European-Chinese Expeditions (1912-1949)"

19. Hakan Wahlquist (Museum of Ethnography, Stockholm): "Sven Hedin as Artist and Photographer: Visual Representations of the Silk Road"


Panel D. Sciences and Techniques

Saturday afternoon, May 15, 2004, 14.00-17.30 h Swiss Federal Institute of Technology at Zurich, Collegium Helveticum, Schmelzbergstrasse 25, 8092 Zurich, Meridiansaal

Chair: Erwin Neuenschwander (Institute of Mathematics, University of Zurich)

20. Paul Kunitzsch (Department of the History of Sciences, Ludwig Maximilians-Universitaet Munich):
"Celestial Maps and Illustrations in Arabic-Islamic Astronomy"

21. Martin Brauen (Ethnographic Museum, University of Zurich): "Images of the Tibetan Cosmos"

22. Marcel Watelet (Ministry of Equipment and Transportation and Louvain-la-Neuve University):
"The Maps of Constantinople and the Bosporus at the End of the 18th Century and the Beginning of the 19th Century Barbie du Bocage and the Diffusion of Francois Kauffer's Cartographical Work"

23. Johannes Thomann (Institute of Oriental Studies, University of Zurich):
"Sources of Physiognomy in the Middle East and Central Asia"

24. Jonathan Bloom (Boston College, Chestnut Hill): "Paper and Maps along the Silk Road"

Conclusions


SUPPORT:

Generous support from the Cogito Foundation, the Zuercher Hochschulstiftung, the Gerda Henkel Stiftung and the Schweizerische Akademie der Geistes - und Sozialwissenschaften has made this conference possible. The University of Zurich and the Collegium Helveticum (Swiss Federal Institute of Technology at Zurich), have  kindly provided the conference rooms.


--------------------------
Conference "Maps and Images: How They Have Transmitted Visual Knowledge Along the Silk Road", Zurich, Switzerland, May 14-15, 2004.

c/o Institute of Oriental Studies, Wiesenstrasse 9, CH-8008 Zurich, phone 0(041)1 634 07 36, fax 0(041)1 634 36 92, maps@oriental.unizh.ch, http://www.ori.unizh.ch/maps.

Philippe Foret, Ph.D., Associate Researcher, Institute of Cartography, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology at Zurich. Prof. Dr. Andreas Kaplony, Institute of Oriental Studies, University of Zurich.

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: vanderkr18@mail.vanderkrogt.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:57:20 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Peter van der Krogt <peter@vanderkrogt.net>
Subject: [MapHist] Blaeu's map of Persia
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Dear all,

In 1634 Willem Blaeu included a map of Persia in his atlas, titled PERSIA Sive SOPHORVM REGNVM.
The plate of this map is used for over thirty years and was still used by Joan Blaeu in the Atlas maior editions of the 1660s. The copperplate has several states because of the alteration of the dedication. I am preparing a short article on the persons to whom the map was dedicated.
There are three different dedications:

1. A dedication to Diederick Tholincx - "D. THEODORO THOLING" - by Willem Blaeu. Coat of arms with three crosses. (Up to ca. 1645).
2. Dedication erased. The dedication cartouche shows two empty spaces, one where the text of the dedication was and one at the place of the coat-of-arms. (from 1645 to 1662)
3. Dedicated to Simon van Hoorn - "D. SIMONI VAN HOORN" - by Joan Blaeu. 
Coat of arms with among others two birds. (in the Atlas maior of 1662 and the Grand Atlas of 1663)

[See the illustrations on the MapHist illustration page http://www.maphist.nl/illustr.html)

In Koeman's Atlantes Neerlandici (volume II, p. 592, map no. 8200:2.3) a state 3a is mentioned with the dedication to Van Hoorn, but with a blank field for the coat of arms. Since I know the compiler of this new edition of the Atlantes Neerlandici :-) I know he cannot find in his notes in which collection he found this variant ("proof") state.

My question to all map curators, collectors and dealers is: please check your Atlas maior (Latin volume 10, the 7th map; or the 11th volume of the French edition, also the 7th map) or your separate maps and see if you have the map in this variant state: thus
- dedicated to Simon van Hoorn
- field for coat of arms blank.

Please let me know if you have such a map.

Thanks in advance

Peter



YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt
Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geo-sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115
3508 TC  UTRECHT, The Netherlands
e-mail: peter@vanderkrogt.net
Homepage: <http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/vanderkrogt> MapHist: <http://www.maphist.nl>
Genealogy: <http://www.vanderkrogt.net> Elementymology: <http://elements.vanderkrogt.net> Columbus Monuments: <http://columbus.vanderkrogt.net>

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY 

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:00:00 -0400
From: "Edward James Redmond" <ered@loc.gov>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Blaeu's map of Persia
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

Peter:

State 2 can be found in Phillips 479 (G1015 .B483 1667 v.11) State 3 (color) can be found in Phillips 3430 (G1015 .B48 1662 v.10) State 3 (b/w) can be found in Phillips 4263 (G1015 .B48 1662b v.10)

If the compiler of the new edition would like digital images of these plates, please let him know.

Ed

Ed Redmond
Reference Specialist
Geography and Map Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave, SE
Washington, DC 20540-4650
(202) 707-8548
ered@loc.gov


>>> peter@vanderkrogt.net 4/22/2004 1:57:20 PM >>> Dear all,

In 1634 Willem Blaeu included a map of Persia in his atlas, titled PERSIA 
Sive SOPHORVM REGNVM.
The plate of this map is used for over thirty years and was still used by 
Joan Blaeu in the Atlas maior editions of the 1660s. The copperplate has 
several states because of the alteration of the dedication. I am preparing 
a short article on the persons to whom the map was dedicated.
There are three different dedications:

1. A dedication to Diederick Tholincx - "D. THEODORO THOLING" - by Willem 
Blaeu. Coat of arms with three crosses. (Up to ca. 1645).
2. Dedication erased. The dedication cartouche shows two empty spaces, one 
where the text of the dedication was and one at the place of the coat-of-arms. (from 1645 to 1662)
3. Dedicated to Simon van Hoorn - "D. SIMONI VAN HOORN" - by Joan Blaeu. 
Coat of arms with among others two birds. (in the Atlas maior of 1662 and 
the Grand Atlas of 1663)

[See the illustrations on the MapHist illustration page http://www.maphist.nl/illustr.html)

In Koeman's Atlantes Neerlandici (volume II, p. 592, map no. 8200:2.3) a 
state 3a is mentioned with the dedication to Van Hoorn, but with a blank 
field for the coat of arms. Since I know the compiler of this new edition 
of the Atlantes Neerlandici :-) I know he cannot find in his notes in which 
collection he found this variant ("proof") state.

My question to all map curators, collectors and dealers is: please check 
your Atlas maior (Latin volume 10, the 7th map; or the 11th volume of the 
French edition, also the 7th map) or your separate maps and see if you have 
the map in this variant state: thus
- dedicated to Simon van Hoorn
- field for coat of arms blank.

Please let me know if you have such a map.

Thanks in advance

Peter



YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt
Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geo-sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115
3508 TC  UTRECHT, The Netherlands
e-mail: peter@vanderkrogt.net 
Homepage: <http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/vanderkrogt> MapHist: <http://www.maphist.nl>
Genealogy: <http://www.vanderkrogt.net> Elementymology: <http://elements.vanderkrogt.net> Columbus Monuments: <http://columbus.vanderkrogt.net>

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY 

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:14:51 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: List-owner MapHist <list-owner@maphist.nl>
Subject: [MapHist] Fwd: Seeking file of historical map
Cc: Greg Colgan <gc@electricpictures.com.au>
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>

>Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:10:06 +0800
>Subject: Seeking file of historical map
>From: Greg Colgan <gc@electricpictures.com.au>
>To: <peter@vanderkrogt.net>
>
>Hello Peter,
>I wonder if you would be kind enough to post this enquiry on my behalf on 
>your Maphist mailing list?
>
>Im doing some research for a television documentary and am seeking a high 
>resolution jpeg image of Pierre Desceliers 1550 map of the world that I 
>may be able to download or receive.  I have spent a few hours searching 
>and still no luck.
>
>Thanks for any assistance that you may be able to provide!
>
>Best wishes,
>Greg Colgan
>
>
>Researcher and Writer
>Electric Pictures Pty Ltd
>Ph:     + 61 89 339 1133
>Fax:   + 61 89 339 1183
>www.electricpictures.com.au
>
>CAUTION - This message and any files transmitted with it may
>contain sensitive and confidential information intended only for the
>use of the addressee named above.  Please do not disseminate this
>information to additional parties, without the consent of the sender.
>_________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Barber, Peter" <Peter.Barber@bl.uk>
To: "'maphist@geog.uu.nl'" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: RE: [MapHist] Fwd: Seeking file of historical map
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:35:20 +0100
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.5 required=5.0 

This request relates to British Library Add. MS 24065.  If a jpeg is required please contact reproductions-mss@bl.uk and, for reproduction permission and fees, picturelibrary@bl.uk

Best wishes

Peter

Peter Barber  MA, FSA, FRHistS
Head of Map Collections
Map Library
British Library
96 Euston Road
London NW1 2DB

tel.(020) 7412 7701
fax (020) 7412 7780


-----Original Message-----
From: List-owner MapHist [mailto:list-owner@maphist.nl] Sent: 23 April 2004 10:15
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Cc: Greg Colgan
Subject: [MapHist] Fwd: Seeking file of historical map


>Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:10:06 +0800
>Subject: Seeking file of historical map
>From: Greg Colgan <gc@electricpictures.com.au>
>To: <peter@vanderkrogt.net>
>
>Hello Peter,
>I wonder if you would be kind enough to post this enquiry on my behalf on 
>your Maphist mailing list?
>
>Im doing some research for a television documentary and am seeking a high 
>resolution jpeg image of Pierre Desceliers 1550 map of the world that I 
>may be able to download or receive.  I have spent a few hours searching 
>and still no luck.
>
>Thanks for any assistance that you may be able to provide!
>
>Best wishes,
>Greg Colgan
>
>
>Researcher and Writer
>Electric Pictures Pty Ltd
>Ph:     + 61 89 339 1133
>Fax:   + 61 89 339 1183
>www.electricpictures.com.au
>
>CAUTION - This message and any files transmitted with it may
>contain sensitive and confidential information intended only for the
>use of the addressee named above.  Please do not disseminate this
>information to additional parties, without the consent of the sender.
>_________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info


**************************************************************************

Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk 

Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book.
www.bl.uk/adoptabook 

*************************************************************************

The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. 

The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. 

************************************************************************* 

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Kit Goodwin <goodwin@uta.edu>
To: "'maphist@geog.uu.nl'" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: [MapHist] Nolin 
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:06:14 -0500
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<html>

<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">


<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">

<style>
<!--
 /* Font Definitions */
 @font-face
	{font-family:"Comic Sans MS";
	panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;}
 /* Style Definitions */
 p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{margin:0in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{color:blue;
	text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
	{color:purple;
	text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig
	{margin:0in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle17
	{font-family:Arial;
	color:windowtext;}
@page Section1
	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
	margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
	{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>

</head>

<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>

<div class=Section1>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Don,</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>There is a copy of the 1743 Nolin, Amerique Septentrionale, in the Virginia Garrett Cartographic History Library. I will send a copy of the record to you off line.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Regards,</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Kit-</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoAutoSig><b><font size=2 face="Comic Sans MS"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";font-weight:bold'>Katherine R. Goodwin</span></font></b></p>

<p class=MsoAutoSig><b><font size=2 face="Comic Sans MS"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";font-weight:bold'>Cartographic Archivist</span></font></b></p>

<p class=MsoAutoSig><b><font size=2 face="Comic Sans MS"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";font-weight:bold'>Special Collections, UTA Libraries</span></font></b></p>

<p class=MsoAutoSig><b><font size=2 face="Comic Sans MS"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";font-weight:bold'><br> <br>
</span></font></b></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Ed Dahl" <edahl@iosphere.net>
To: "MAPHIST (to post)" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: [MapHist] Portrait of Einstein in Old Age by Map Curator
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 07:22:35 -0400
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version devel-20040415, clamav-milter version 0.70j
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2737.800" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>Excerpts from an article in today's <EM>New York Times</EM>.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT 
face=Arial>*******************************</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>From Companion's Lost Diary, a Portrait of Einstein in Old Age<BR></STRONG><BR>April 24, 2004<BR>&nbsp;By DENNIS OVERBYE<BR><BR>Around Princeton she was known as Einstein's last<BR>girlfriend. 
She cut his hair -- shocking as it might be to<BR>imagine anyone tampering with that wispy cosmic aureole.<BR>They sailed together until the doctors took his boat away.<BR>They went to concerts together. He wrote her poems and<BR>letters bedecked with jokes and kisses. And he called her<BR>several times a week to chat about the day.<BR><BR>Now it turns out that she was taking notes.<BR><BR>In February librarians found a 62-page manuscript in which </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>Johanna Fantova, a former curator of maps in the </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>Firestone&nbsp;</STRONG></FONT><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>Library at Princeton University</STRONG>, who was 22 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>years younger&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=Arial>than Albert Einstein, recorded his musings, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>opinions and complaints over the last year and a half of his </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>life.&nbsp; Einstein&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=Arial>died in April 1955, at age 76; she died in 1981, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>at age 80.<BR><BR>"Unless a similar discovery is made in the future, this new<BR>manuscript from Firestone Library is the only extant diary<BR>that anyone close to Einstein has kept, at least of this<BR>final period of his life," writes Alice Calaprice....</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial> <DIV><BR><STRONG>After attending library school at the University of North<BR>Carolina, [Fantova] found work at the Firestone Library </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>in 1944, becoming its first map curator in 1952....<BR></STRONG><BR></FONT><A 
href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/nyregion/24EINS.html?ex=1083804405&amp;ei=1&amp;en=218571675c79e760"><FONT face=Arial>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/nyregion/24EINS.html?ex=1083804405&amp;ei=1&amp;en=218571675c79e760</FONT></A><BR><BR><FONT face=Arial>Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>
X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 16:29:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Lester <mapsguy@yahoo.com>
Subject: [MapHist] Hondius Virginia Florida map with 1597 date
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.6 required=5.0 

Greetings MapHisters,

I have yet another query. According to Burden and Cumming, Virginiae Item et Floridae / Americae Provinciarum, Nova/ Descriptio by Jodocus Hondius was 1st published in the 1606 edition of Mercator’s Atlas and remained unchanged throughout its long life. Every copy I have seen “in person” or via the internet is undated. However, the example illustrated in Tar Heel Maps (THM) shows a date of 1597 in the bottom right cartouche.

Burden, in his marvelous reference, The Mapping of North America, writes, “… informed the author of a reproduction with a much larger plate mark extending some 15 to 20 mm. beyond the neatline. The only alteration to the image is the inclusion of A.1588 to the cartouche lower right, indicating that its purpose was most probably to illustrate the region at the time of Sir Walter Raleigh.” Unfortunately, there is no additional information about this apparent reproduction.

Several months ago, a lady who lives in eastern Colorado contacted me about a copy of this map, with the 1588 date, in her possession. Only then did I notice the 1597 date on the copy illustrated in THM.

Does anyone have an explanation for the 1597 date on the copy illustrated in THM? Has anyone seen a copy with either 1597 or 1588 dates? Images of dated and undated cartouches can be seen at the following web page:
http://www.cummingmapsociety.org/HondiusCartouche.htm and the entire map can be seen at the top of this web page: http://www.cummingmapsociety.org/17thC_Maps.htm

As always, thanks so much for your help.

Regards,
Jay L.





=====
Jay Lester
Chapel Hill, NC
mapsguy@yahoo.com


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: F.Herbert@RGS.org
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Anthony Mullan is a wanted man!
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:36:45 +0100
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.8 required=5.0 

<x-html>
<html>

<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">


<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">

<style>
<!--
 /* Style Definitions */
 p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{margin:0cm;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{color:blue;
	text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
	{color:purple;
	text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
	{font-family:Arial;
	color:windowtext;}
@page Section1
	{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
	margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}
div.Section1
	{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>

</head>

<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>

<div class=Section1>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>2003 Harley Fellowship winner Anthony Mullan (of LC) and I met and chatted after last Thursday's 'Maps and Society' Lecture here in </span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
  style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>London</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>.&nbsp; I gave him my card asking him to e-mail me as - according to himself - there was something of potential trans-Andean interest to him here. &nbsp;But he hasn't yet made contact (telephone for me being not easy).&nbsp; Could someone nudge him to contact me, because I should like to re-file one particular (printed) Library item I already had out for another purpose?&nbsp; Of the Archives (MS) item I could give him a better description if he were to call personally.</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thanks</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Francis Herbert</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a href="mailto:f.herbert@rgs.org">f.herbert@rgs.org</a></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a href="http://www.rgs.org/">http://www.rgs.org</a> [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives']</span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

</x-html>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Rodney Shirley" <rws@dial.pipex.com>
To: "maphist" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: [MapHist] Re [Maphist] William Walton 
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:56:04 +0100
Organization: UUNET
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 

I am grateful for responses to my query about the role of the Englishman William Walton and his map of the river systems of eastern Siberia. There has been some clarification, and  I have found out that the printed version of the map (which aroused my interest) seems to have come from an unassociated work by Jean Benoit Scherer called Recherches historiques et geographiques sur le nouveau monde published in Paris in 1777. But (as Dee Longenbaugh says) there still remains several puzzling aspects.

I am emailing separately to the main respondents with a summary of what has been found out. Meanwhile it would be good to hear from any Russian maphist recipients if the Walton map, presumably in manuscript, is still known to exist in St.Petersburg--or has it disappeared?

rws@dial.pipex.com



_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Roderick M. Barron" <rod@barron.co.uk>
To: "Map Hist List" <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: [MapHist] Chatelain Atlas Historique   / Zacharias Chatelain - Henri Abraham Chatelain
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:18:08 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 


Roderick M. Barron
Antique Map Specialist
P.O.Box 67
Sevenoaks
Kent TN13 3WW
ENGLAND
Tel/Fax: +44-1732-742558
website : http://www.barron.co.uk
e-mail : rod@barron.co.uk
VAT Reg No.GB 602 6465 60


Chatelain "Atlas Historique" [7 vols, Amsterdam, 1705-1739]

In descriptions of the Chatelain "Atlas Historique", the author is often given as Henri Abraham Chatelain.

Biographical information on Henri Abraham Chatelain [1684-1743] indicates that he was a Protestant minister / pastor of Parisian origins, resident at St. Martin's, London [from 1710], the Hague [from 1721] and Amsterdam [from 1728].

Per Koeman, the publishers of the "Atlas Historique" were the firms of L'Honoré & Chatelain (the Chatelain being Zacharias Chatelain, (father & son)).

The publishing firm of Chatelain, Chatelain Frères and Chatelain & Fils is recorded in Amsterdam, from around 1700-1770, with Zacharias living "op den Dam" in 1730.

As far as I can tell from Koeman, the "Atlas Historique" was in fact published anonymously, being described on each of the titlepages of the 7 volumes as simply the work of "Mr. C***" , with additional dissertations on the history of each country by Mr. Guedeville.

So can anyone help me in clarifying Henri Abraham Chatelain's authorship (or not as the case may be) of the "Atlas Historique" & also the family link or relationship between Henri Abraham Chatelain and Zacharias Chatelain / Chatelain Frères / Chatelain & Fils, given the common surname. Was Henri Abraham another brother of the "Chatelain Frères" perhaps ?

Any assistance & input would be much appreciated.

Roderick M Barron



_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Map Collector Publications Ltd" <mapcollector@btopenworld.com>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Chatelain Atlas Historique   / Zacharias Chatelain - Henri Abraham Chatelain
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:16:57 +0100
Organization: Map Collector Publications Ltd
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 

If you refer to Volume I of the revised 'Tooley's Dictionary of Mapmakers' you will find some helpful information on the Chatelain family.

Valerie Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick M. Barron" <rod@barron.co.uk> To: "Map Hist List" <maphist@geog.uu.nl> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:18 PM
Subject: [MapHist] Chatelain Atlas Historique / Zacharias Chatelain - Henri Abraham Chatelain


>
> Roderick M. Barron
> Antique Map Specialist
> P.O.Box 67
> Sevenoaks
> Kent TN13 3WW
> ENGLAND
> Tel/Fax: +44-1732-742558
> website : http://www.barron.co.uk
> e-mail : rod@barron.co.uk
> VAT Reg No.GB 602 6465 60
>
>
> Chatelain "Atlas Historique" [7 vols, Amsterdam, 1705-1739]
>
> In descriptions of the Chatelain "Atlas Historique", the author is often
> given as Henri Abraham Chatelain.
>
> Biographical information on Henri Abraham Chatelain [1684-1743] indicates
> that he was a Protestant minister / pastor of Parisian origins, resident at
> St. Martin's, London [from 1710], the Hague [from 1721] and Amsterdam [from
> 1728].
>
> Per Koeman, the publishers of the "Atlas Historique" were the firms of
> L'Honoré & Chatelain (the Chatelain being Zacharias Chatelain, (father &
> son)).
>
> The publishing firm of Chatelain, Chatelain Frères and Chatelain & Fils is
> recorded in Amsterdam, from around 1700-1770, with Zacharias living "op den
> Dam" in 1730.
>
> As far as I can tell from Koeman, the "Atlas Historique" was in fact
> published anonymously, being described on each of the titlepages of the 7
> volumes as simply the work of "Mr. C***" , with additional dissertations on
> the history of each country by Mr. Guedeville.
>
> So can anyone help me in clarifying Henri Abraham Chatelain's authorship
> (or not as the case may be) of the "Atlas Historique" & also the family link
> or relationship between Henri Abraham Chatelain and Zacharias Chatelain /
> Chatelain Frères / Chatelain & Fils, given the common surname. Was Henri
> Abraham another brother of the "Chatelain Frères" perhaps ?
>
> Any assistance & input would be much appreciated.
>
> Roderick M Barron
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
> the views of the author.
> List Information: http://www.maphist.info
>

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Originating-IP: [24.188.16.36]
X-Originating-Email: [gastaldo@msn.com]
X-Sender: gastaldo@msn.com
From: "Douglas Sims" <gastaldo@msn.com>
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] 3 valuable "sleeper" works on 16th c Italian maps: Bury, Milanesi, and Ventrice
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:46:17 -0400
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Apr 2004 06:46:17.0885 (UTC) FILETIME=[820A8CD0:01C42CEC]
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Three times in rapid succession recently I have had works come to my attention which make valuable and original contributions to understudied areas in the history of 16th century Italian cartography.  In all three cases, for various reasons which will be clear ahead, they are works which are unlikely to be noticed by scholars in the relevant area, and thus it seemed MapHisters should be alerted to their existence.  One only, the first, may be familiar to some already, but it makes such a vital contribution, paying a few extra encomia to it here will not be out of place anyway.

Bury, Michael.  "The Print in Italy, 1550-1620."  London, British Library, 2001. There is a lengthy review by Suzanne Boorsch in "Print Quarterly," 19(2002), 407-11, which does not, however, make obvious the usefulness of the book to cartohistorians.
While this is an exhibition catalog, MapHisters will be familiar with the fact that the level of scholarship in many such catalogs ismuch higher in recent times than formerly, and Bury takes this to the point here that if his text alone were printed, it would be a scholarly work of the highest level.  The book is not about maps, but prints in general, though it does deal with a number of maps, including Gastaldi's famous Third Part of Asia (1561).  Much more important, it throws unprecedented light on many areas of printmaking which are universally applicable to all kinds of prints, including therefore maps.  Among areas where the greatest and most original contributions are made are privileges and licences for maps, the significance of the dedications on maps, and the overall structure of the printmaking business, with relations between the various involved persons, as drawers (inventers), engravers, printers, publishers, sellers, and even touches on the question of guild affiliations.  Anyone familiar with 16th century Italian maps will be aware of the fragmentary, scattered and incidental nature of most information which has been available in the named areas.  Areas which have been treated rather more substantially than these before, but to which Bury adds valuable new information, include preparation of images for transferral to a plate, and the making and preparation of plates themselves.  A great deal of the new information is the resdult of original research.  Much more is also dealt with, and the work concludes with what is probably the best alphabetical directory to date of the various engravers, printers, publishers, etc. (Camocio,the Bertellis, Forlani, etc. 
and many not well known tomap historians.) Knowing Bury had made contributions valuable to the history of cartography before, I opened this book for a quick perusal, thinking I might find a small amount of usefu linformation, but quickly found myself pleasantly overwhelmed by the quantity of new information.  It is an indispensable work for map historians.

Milanesi, Marica [various entries in:] Archivio di Stato di Torino. 
"Architettura militare:  Luoghi, città, fortezze, territori in età moderna." Vol. I, ed. Antonio Dentoni-Litta and Isabella Massabò Ricci.  Roma, date uncertain to me.
Certainly there is little in the title of this work which would compel the ordinary historian of cartography to go to the trouble of obtaining it, for it is a very large and expensive book. (I don't know its exact price.)  Nor is there any mention of Marica Milanesi in the author credits.  But the work does include a number of valuable sections by Milanesi dealing with some 16th century Italian printed maps in the Archivio di Stato di Torino, maps of the kind typically found in the so-called Lafrerian atlases.  The existence of this fund has been known for some time, but only in a most general way.  None of the maps in it have been itemized before.  The maps Milanesi deals with are the three parts of Gastaldi's Asia, two lists of "Nomi antichi et moderni" which accompany them,the original 1545 edition of Gastaldi's Sicily, and four maps published by Forlani, his 1562 Africa, 1566 Soria and Terra Santa, his undated Peru (South America), and his 1566 Nova Franza.  While Milanesi does a first-rate job of presenting all the cartobibliographical details of these maps, what makes her work especially valuable is the amount of general discussion she devotes to these works.  
Her discussion of the Gastaldi 3-part Asia,one of his most important productions, is longer than any other to date, and goes into general assessment of the maps and, especially important, the question of their sources, although an exhaustive analysis still remains to be done.  A unique feature is her discussion of the lists of "Nomi antichi et moderni" which accompany the maps, going into the historical background of the development of this uage, an area which as far as I know has never been touched on at all before.  She also gives substantial discussion on the Sicily and on the four Forlani maps, of which only the Nova Franza had received significant attention before (Woodward and Marinelli).  I am not sure this work is actually available yet on the market.  It is published by the Ministero per i Beni Culturali e Ambientali, Direzione Generale per gli Archivi, Roma; and is sold by the Istituto Poligrafico e Zecca dello Stato--Libreria dello Stato, Piazza Verdi 10, 00198 Roma.

Rusconi,Antonio; and Ventrice, Pasquale.  "Magistrato alle Acque: Lineamenti di storia del governo delle acque venete."  Roma, Tipografia del Genio Civile, 2001.
I pretty much stumbled on this work by chance in the Servizio Bibliotecario Nazionale(http://opac.sbn.it/cgi-bin/IccuForm.pl?form=WebFrame) while verifying the bibliographical details of another work,  and would certainly have remained unaware of it if I had not.  The book deals with the Magistratura alle Acque, as its title suggests, the Venetian magistracy which was first officially established in 1501 to deal with controlling the waters of the lagoon and the rivers that flow into it, and its archives contain hundreds of old manuscripot maps from the 16th century onward, including a good number by important cartographers such as Giacomo Gasatldi, Cristoforo Sorte, and Cristoforo Sabbadino, and others.  The book is in two parts, the first (pp. 17-162) by Ventrice, covering not only the period from founding in 1501 to the 19th century, but also covering efforts to deal with water control before the founding of the magistracy, while the second part (pp. 163-367) is by Rusconi,and covers the 20th century.  MapHisters will be aware that, often, when a work covers a span of several centuries, the early centuries get short shrift, but that is not the case here.  The most valuable chapters are 1, "Il governo delle acque venete fino al XVI secolo,"pp. 19-47, for the period before the 1501 founding,and 2,"L'istituzione del Magistrato alle Acque," pp. 49-102, which deals principally with the 16th century.  Ventrice's strong point is not the practical activities of the magistracy, but the administrative structure of the rather complex magistracy, discussing this at some length (Savi alle Acque, Esecutori alle Acque, Collegio delle Acque, the proti, or engineers, and much more.)   Denis Cosgrove and Juergen Schulzhave, in various works, contributed valuable information to this area, but this is the first full length work to deal with it. (There was not much on the early period in a 1985 collection("Laguna, fiumi, lidi : cinque secoli di gestione delle acque nelle Venezie : atti del Convegno indetto dal Magistrato alle acque, Venezia-Fondazione Cini, S. Giorgio maggiore, 10-12 giugno 1983." [Venice], 1985.)  There is no index.  The book is hard to find.  It never appeared in the annual "Catalogo dei libri in commercio," and it is not mentioned on the website of Tipografia del Genio Civile (www.build.it).  I finally managaed to find Ventrice's e-mail address, and he told me the book was almost unobtainable, but referred me to the magistracy itself (It still exists.), and gave me their web address (http://www.magisacque.it), and e-mail address (de.zotti@magisacque.it), and upon my inquiry, they unexpectedly mailed me a copy fee of charge!  I am sending them prolific thanks, and intend to contribute the book to the New York Public Library when done with it.  There is no other copy in the U. S. I think.

Douglas W Sims
dougsims1945@yahoo.com

"Peace is for winners; war is for losers" midwestern straight-shooter

_________________________________________________________________
>From must-see cities to the best beaches, plan a getaway with the Spring Travel Guide! http://special.msn.com/local/springtravel.armx

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:34:14 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist <list-owner@maphist.nl>)
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Chatelain Atlas Historique   / Zacharias
  Chatelain - Henri Abraham Chatelain
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Non-member submission from [brink@geog.uu.nl] Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:50:54 +0200 (CEST)

Roderick,

According to the STCN "Short Title Catalogue of the Netherlands" (and by far the most reliable source for the book history of the Netherlands before 1800, Nicolas Gueudeville (1652-ca. 1721) and Henri Abraham Chatelain (1684-1743)were the authors responsible for the Atlas Historique.
Using the STCN (you can consult the database by logging in to

http://www.kb.nl/coop/bibliop/bibl-html/index_en.html

Select the option "Books" and than "general search instruments" and you will be directed to the database (it has an English interface). It will enable you to find the most exact, though complicated information on the publishing activities  of the firms of Franc&#807;ois l'Honore and the family Chatelain.

Dr. Paul van den Brink
Explokart Research Team
University of Utrecht
The Netherlands

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:35:45 +0200
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist <list-owner@maphist.nl>)
Subject: [MapHist] 3 valuable "sleeper" works on 16th c Italian maps: Bury,
  Milanesi, and Ventrice
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by randy.eatserver.nl id i3SGaFb23849
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
Non-member submission from [Douglas Sims <dougsims1945@yahoo.com>]


Three times in rapid succession recently I have had works come to my attention which make valuable and original contributions to understudied areas in the history of 16th century Italian cartography.  In all three cases, for various reasons which will be clear ahead, they are works which are unlikely to be noticed by scholars in the relevant area, and thus it seemed MapHisters should be alerted to their existence.  One only, the first, may be familiar to some already, but it makes such a vital contribution, paying a few extra encomia to it here will not be out of place anyway.
Bury, Michael.  "The Print in Italy, 1550-1620."  London, British Library, 2001. There is a lengthy review by Suzanne Boorsch in "Print Quarterly," 19(2002), 407-11, which does not, however, make obvious the usefulness of the book to cartohistorians.
While this is an exhibition catalog, MapHisters will be familiar with the fact that the level of scholarship in many such catalogs ismuch higher in recent times than formerly, and Bury takes this to the point here that if his text alone were printed, it would be a scholarly work of the highest level.  The book is not about maps, but prints in general, though it does deal with a number of maps, including Gastaldi's famous Third Part of Asia (1561).  Much more important, it throws unprecedented light on many areas of printmaking which are universally applicable to all kinds of prints, including therefore maps.  Among areas where the greatest and most original contributions are made are privileges and licences for maps, the significance of the dedications on maps, and the overall structure of the printmaking business, with relations between the various involved persons, as drawers (inventers), engravers, printers, publishers, sellers, and even touches on the question of guild
  affiliations.  Anyone familiar with 16th century Italian maps will be aware of the fragmentary, scattered and incidental nature of most information which has been available in the named areas.  Areas which have been treated rather more substantially than these before, but to which Bury adds valuable new information, include preparation of images for transferral to a plate, and the making and preparation of plates themselves.  A great deal of the new information is the resdult of original research.  Much more is also dealt with, and the work concludes with what is probably the best alphabetical directory to date of the various engravers, printers, publishers, etc. (Camocio,the Bertellis, Forlani, etc. 
and many not well known tomap historians.) Knowing Bury had made contributions valuable to the history of cartography before, I opened this book for a quick perusal, thinking I might find a small amount of usefu linformation, but quickly found myself pleasantly overwhelmed by th
  e
  quantity of new information.  It is an indispensable work for map historians.

Milanesi, Marica [various entries in:] Archivio di Stato di Torino. 
"Architettura militare:  Luoghi, città, fortezze, territori in età moderna." Vol. I, ed. Antonio Dentoni-Litta and Isabella Massabò Ricci.  Roma, date uncertain to me.
Certainly there is little in the title of this work which would compel the ordinary historian of cartography to go to the trouble of obtaining it, for it is a very large and expensive book. (I don't know its exact price.)  Nor is there any mention of Marica Milanesi in the author credits.  But the work does include a number of valuable sections by Milanesi dealing with some 16th century Italian printed maps in the Archivio di Stato di Torino, maps of the kind typically found in the so-called Lafrerian atlases.  The existence of this fund has been known for some time, but only in a most general way.  None of the maps in it have been itemized before.  The maps Milanesi deals with are the three parts of Gastaldi's Asia, two lists of "Nomi antichi et moderni" which accompany them,the original 1545 edition of Gastaldi's Sicily, and four maps published by Forlani, his 1562 Africa, 1566 Soria and Terra Santa, his undated Peru (South America), and his 1566 Nova Franza.  While Milanes
  i does a
  first-rate job of presenting all the cartobibliographical details of these maps, what makes her work especially valuable is the amount of general discussion she devotes to these works.  Her discussion of the Gastaldi 3-part Asia,one of his most important productions, is longer than any other to date, and goes into general assessment of the maps and, especially important, the question of their sources, although an exhaustive analysis still remains to be done.  A unique feature is her discussion of the lists of "Nomi antichi et moderni" which accompany the maps, going into the historical background of the development of this uage, an area which as far as I know has never been touched on at all before.  She also gives substantial discussion on the Sicily and on the four Forlani maps, of which only the Nova Franza had received significant attention before (Woodward and Marinelli).  I am not sure this work is actually available yet on the market.  It is published by the Ministero
   per i
  Beni Culturali e Ambientali, Direzione Generale per gli Archivi, Roma; and is sold by the Istituto Poligrafico e Zecca dello Stato--Libreria dello Stato, Piazza Verdi 10, 00198 Roma.

Rusconi,Antonio; and Ventrice, Pasquale.  "Magistrato alle Acque: Lineamenti di storia del governo delle acque venete."  Roma, Tipografia del Genio Civile, 2001.
I pretty much stumbled on this work by chance in the Servizio Bibliotecario Nazionale(http://opac.sbn.it/cgi-bin/IccuForm.pl?form=WebFrame) while verifying the bibliographical details of another work,  and would certainly have remained unaware of it if I had not.  The book deals with the Magistratura alle Acque, as its title suggests, the Venetian magistracy which was first officially established in 1501 to deal with controlling the waters of the lagoon and the rivers that flow into it, and its archives contain hundreds of old manuscripot maps from the 16th century onward, including a good number by important cartographers such as Giacomo Gasatldi, Cristoforo Sorte, and Cristoforo Sabbadino, and others.  The book is in two parts, the first (pp. 17-162) by Ventrice, covering not only the period from founding in 1501 to the 19th century, but also covering efforts to deal with water control before the founding of the magistracy, while the second part (pp. 163-367) is by Rusconi,
  and
  covers the 20th century.  MapHisters will be aware that, often, when a work covers a span of several centuries, the early centuries get short shrift, but that is not the case here.  The most valuable chapters are 1, "Il governo delle acque venete fino al XVI secolo,"pp. 19-47, for the period before the 1501 founding,and 2,"L'istituzione del Magistrato alle Acque," pp. 49-102, which deals principally with the 16th century.  Ventrice's strong point is not the practical activities of the magistracy, but the administrative structure of the rather complex magistracy, discussing this at some length (Savi alle Acque, Esecutori alle Acque, Collegio delle Acque, the proti, or engineers, and much more.)   Denis Cosgrove and Juergen Schulzhave, in various works, contributed valuable information to this area, but this is the first full length work to deal with it. (There was not much on the early period in a 1985 collection("Laguna, fiumi, lidi : cinque secoli di gestione delle acque ne
  lle
  Venezie : atti del Convegno indetto dal Magistrato alle acque, Venezia-Fondazione Cini, S. Giorgio maggiore, 10-12 giugno 1983." [Venice], 1985.)  There is no index.  The book is hard to find.  It never appeared in the annual "Catalogo dei libri in commercio," and it is not mentioned on the website of Tipografia del Genio Civile (www.build.it).  I finally managaed to find Ventrice's e-mail address, and he told me the book was almost unobtainable, but referred me to the magistracy itself (It still exists.), and gave me their web address (http://www.magisacque.it), and e-mail address (de.zotti@magisacque.it), and upon my inquiry, they unexpectedly mailed me a copy fee of charge!  I am sending them prolific thanks, and intend to contribute the book to the New York Public Library when done with it.  There is no other copy in the U. S. I think.

Douglas W Sims

dougsims1945@yahoo.com
"Peace is for winners; war is for losers" midwestern straight-shooter

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Sender: psellin@mail.ucla.edu
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:35:23 -0700
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: paul sellin <psellin@ucla.edu>
Subject: [MapHist] Tide tables Boca de Serpiente (Trinidad/Manamo) 1595
X-Probable-Spam: no
X-Spam-Hits: -4.901
X-Scanned-By: vscan.smtp.ucla.edu
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>
	Would there be any way of determining the time of high (flood) tides on Wednesday, May 21, 1595, in the Boca de Serpiente,  the strait between Trinidad and the Orinoco delta?
	Could the elevation of high tides on that day be calculated?

	Paul R. Sellin    psellin@ucla.edu 

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Angus Murray" <a.d.j.murray@ntlworld.com>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Tide tables Boca de Serpiente (Trinidad/Manamo) 1595
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:04:13 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 

Paul,
You could probably do it with "XTide" (see web) but it would need some customising. Tides are not  easy to predict reliably for times past and they depend on wind and atmospheric pressure as well as the position of the earth and moon.  By the time you get back to the beginning of the christian era predictions are completely unreliable. The time of high tide would probably be reasonably accurate but the exact height at this time and date would be of dubious reliabity.
Regards Angus Murray.
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul sellin" <psellin@ucla.edu>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 2:35 AM
Subject: [MapHist] Tide tables Boca de Serpiente (Trinidad/Manamo) 1595


> Would there be any way of determining the time of high (flood) tides on
> Wednesday, May 21, 1595, in the Boca de Serpiente,  the strait between
> Trinidad and the Orinoco delta?
> Could the elevation of high tides on that day be calculated?
>
> Paul R. Sellin    psellin@ucla.edu
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
> the views of the author.
> List Information: http://www.maphist.info

_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: "Paul Hughes" <tides@btinternet.com>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: [MapHist] Tide tables Boca de Serpiente (Trinidad/Manamo) 1595
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:27:45 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

Paul,
As Angus Murray says, there are problems. In the absense of an actual observation, any calculation is from the astronomy and avoids meteorological effect. As one is looking to the past then it is better described as a calculation, rather than a prediction. To be sure that you have got into the right epoch, you could try getting a calculation of the age of the moon on that day. The lunar calculation is often set out in almanacs and prayer books. Can you put up with a rough guide?
Looking up the age of the moon in modern tide tables, will give you a crude measure of the height and time of HW, on the day you want.
Otherwise, try the Proudman Oceanographic Laboratory.

Check out my web site

http://www.airmynyorks.co.uk

Captain Paul Hughes
106 High Street
Airmyn
Yorkshire DN14 8LB 


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 2eKwMOrztJI3TYXd/wnwGm65iSqjyl4uSD3dJk6AmY2yFBYPkUAOQA==
X-Originating-IP: [204.213.37.217]
X-Original-From: "Philip Hoehn" <philhoehn@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 16:43:57 GMT
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] David Rumsey Collection popups
X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0
From: Philip Hoehn <philhoehn@juno.com>
X-ContentStamp: 2:2:4074876675
X-MAIL-INFO: 536149d42d7554d194d12441d96540d1398109054d3d2909a581298495
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.8 required=5.0 


A reminder to those viewing images on the David Rumsey Collection website:  
The browser may require that you allow popups.  This option is available in most browser applications under Tools.  If popups are not allowed the browser collection will not launch.  In Netscape 7.1 you can select the sites from which you wish to allow popups.



Phil Hoehn, Map Librarian
San Francisco -- philhoehn@juno.com
-----------------------------------
Contractor for David Rumsey Collection: http://www.davidrumsey.com
_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:57:42 -0400
From: "Edward James Redmond" <ered@loc.gov>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: [MapHist] David Rumsey Collection popups
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

The Google toolbar - http://toolbar.google.com/  -also allows you select  specific sites from which you wish to allow popups.  (no - I am not getting a piece of the IPO)

Ed Redmond
Reference Specialist
Geography and Map Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave, SE
Washington, DC 20540-4650
(202) 707-8548
ered@loc.gov


>>> philhoehn@juno.com 4/29/2004 12:43:57 PM >>>

A reminder to those viewing images on the David Rumsey Collection website:
 
The browser may require that you allow popups.  This option is available in most browser applications under Tools.  If popups are not allowed the browser collection will not launch.  In Netscape 7.1 you can select the sites from which you wish to allow popups.



Phil Hoehn, Map Librarian
San Francisco -- philhoehn@juno.com 
-----------------------------------
Contractor for David Rumsey Collection: http://www.davidrumsey.com 
_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 10:18:03 -0700
From: "Duane F. Marble" <marble.1@osu.edu>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax; CDonDemand-Dom)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] [Fwd: [rome-arch] BBC NEWS - STANFORD FORMA URBIS PROJECT]
X-Spam-Rating: mail.oregonfast.net 0/1/N
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/)
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl
Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
List-Info: http://www.maphist.info
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 

<x-flowed>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[rome-arch] BBC NEWS - STANFORD FORMA URBIS PROJECT Date: 	Thu, 29 Apr 2004 16:10:52 +0000
From: 	mgconde@yahoo.com
To: 	rome-arch@yahoogroups.com


Computer helps map ancient Rome 
By Dr David Whitehouse [Former Dir. BSR] BBC News Online science editor 

Progress has been made in piecing together the Forma Urbis Romae, a map of Rome carved into stone slabs about AD 210 but later broken into fragments. 
Measuring 18m by 14m, it was originally hung in the Templum Pacis, one of the ancient city's major public landmarks. 

The map was remarkably accurate but researchers looking for new sites to excavate in Rome had only managed to fit back together a few of the pieces. 

A Stanford University computer program is now being used to aid restoration. 

New understanding 

So complicated is the jumble of parts that for decades the map pieces have been referred to as "the biggest jigsaw in the world". 


In doing so, we have created the largest and most detailed model of a cultural artefact 
Professor Marc Levoy 
Every few years, a researcher has suggested a match between two pieces. And now, the new computer program produced by Stanford's Dr David Koller has found seven high-probability matches and a host of other possibilities. 
"When David put up a slide of his findings at a recent conference there was an audible gasp from the audience," said Professor Marc Levoy, also of Stanford University. 

With the new computer analysis, experts are predicting a huge expansion in knowledge of the map and a new insight into ancient Rome. 

Building rubble 

The Forma Urbis showed almost every feature of the city from the Coliseum and the Circus Maximus, where the chariot races took place, down to individual shops and even staircases. 


But shortly after the fall of Rome, it is thought that the lower part of the map was torn from the wall, probably to be burned in kilns to make lime for cement. 
It may have lain for centuries as just a heap of jumbled fragments, occasionally plundered for other building works. 

During the Renaissance, some recognised its importance, but still the pieces continued to be dispersed. 

"The map will never be fully recovered; no more than 15% of it survives and that is in 1,186 pieces," Professor Levoy told BBC News Online. 

Other puzzles 

"But there is much about ancient Rome hidden in this jigsaw, and many new computer techniques required to extract it. 

"The first big task was to scan and digitise the existing pieces," Professor Levoy said. "In doing so, we have created the largest and most detailed model of a cultural artefact." 

The Stanford team has also made its data available to anyone via the internet. 

"Anyone can see our 3D models of the map fragments but our software does not allow them to download details of the fragments' geometry." 

The need for security regarding the map fragments was dictated by Italian researchers but it is an interesting aspect of the database that Levoy believes may have other uses. 

The algorithms developed for matching pieces could perhaps be employed in other areas of science where pattern recognition is required, such as looking for structure within the data obtained by the Human Genome Project. 

New directions 

Town planners and scientists studying urban sprawl may also benefit from the ancient map. 


The pieces of the Forma Urbis show a mix of monuments, shops, private houses and open spaces which is remarkable given the size of the city at the time. 
The relationship of private and public spaces has attracted some researchers' interest as a way to tackle town planning today. 

But Professor Levoy believes the map will be forever unfinished business. 

"With so little of it remaining, we will never match all the pieces we have, but what we can do is gain an insight into unexcavated parts of the city and point archaeologists towards particular sites. 

"It's a curious feeling to be walking down a street in Rome and know what was on the same street some 2,000 years before." 


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/science/nature/3659501.stm

Published: 2004/04/28 14:46:12 GMT

© BBC MMIV

MARTIN G CONDE
WASHINGTON DC, USA
mgconde@Yahoo.com


-

Dr. Duane F. Marble		Email:  marble.1@osu.edu 2226 Primrose Lane		Telephone: (541) 902-8837 Florence, OR  97439		Cell:  (541) 991-1730

     "The collective noun for anecdotes is not 'data."



_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

</x-flowed>