Re: [MapHist] Antique Map Forgeries

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:10:13 EDT Subject: [MapHist] Re: Article on digital Nolli map To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 208 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.621 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.686, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_10_20=0.246, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level:
Translating from English to English nearly always loses something, I've found. I have to assume Tice knows what he's talking about, but whatever it is he's trying to say just isn't coming across the news medium correctly. Obviously plenty of maps were 'oriented' with north toward the top long before Nolli.

Regards,
daan Strebe

In a message dated 7/31/05 11:52:08 AM, owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl writes:

Non-member submission from ["Duane F. Marble" <dmarble@OregonFast.net>]

Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:26:57 -0700
July 21, 2005

A Roman mapsterpiece

By Greg Bolt
The Register-Guard

WEB EDITOR'S NOTE: The posted version of this story was edited July 21,
2005 to include the following: The Nolli Map project is a joint effort
between the University of Oregon departments of Architecture and Geography.

An old proverb says all roads lead to Rome. Now so does the road through
cyberspace.

Two University of Oregon researchers have put the Eternal City on the
digital map with an interactive Web site that lets people explore Rome
through an 18th century mapping masterpiece while being able to instantly
zoom in on the city as it is now.

As much a silicon guidebook as a map, the project blends cartography,
history, architecture and urban design into a single tool that's as much
fun for casual viewers as it is useful for scholars.

"This is far better than any map you could buy at a newsstand in Rome,"
said James Tice, a UO architecture professor who's leading the project.

It goes far beyond tourist maps that simply show a tangled web of streets
dotted with little stars marking points of interest. The interactive,
Web-based map offers articles and historical details on hundreds of plazas,
churches, fountains and buildings, shows how the city has changed and how
it has stayed the same over 250 years and literally lets viewers take a
bird's-eye tour of one of the world's greatest cities.

At the heart of the project is what's known as the "Nolli Map," a
tour-de-force of mapmaking completed by Giambattista Nolli in 1748. Almost
microscopic in detail, the Nolli Map had to be made in 12 sections on
embossed copper plates because it was too big - at almost six feet by seven
feet - for the printing technology of the time.

Tice, cartographer Erik Steiner of the UO Infographics Lab and graduate
student Mark Brenneman for the first time unified the separate pieces into
a single digital map. The result is the first-ever representation of the
map as Nolli himself would have wanted to see it.

"I'm proud to say we have the first seamless Nolli Map," said Tice, who has
been fascinated with the graphic ever since he was introduced to it 25
years ago as a graduate student at Cornell. "This is how Nolli intended to
do it; this is what he would have wanted to do had the technology been
available. So this is an important breakthrough."

On the project's Web page, viewers can scroll across the map, zoom in and
out on palazzi and basilicas, trace the city's ancient walls and gates,
locate fountains and gardens and simply immerse themselves in a level of
detail that had never been achieved in mapmaking.

Then they can layer modern satellite views over the old map and see what an
area looks like today.

"I like to say it's almost a Pompeii-like document of the city because it
shows pawnshops and prisons and schools, it shows street drains and
aqueducts and fountains, you name it," Tice said of Nolli's map. "It's just
the whole life of the city on that map, so it's an incredible cultural
document."

Tice said Rome offers a unique laboratory for the study of urban design.
It's not only the most documented city in the world, it also offers a model
for balancing built space with open space and finding beauty amid density.

"There's an incredible wealth of information about the city that has
incredible lessons for anyone who's interested in urban settings," he said.
"The study of Rome is a window to a kind of humane urbanism. It kind of
teaches us how we can live in cities in a denser environment but do so in a
humane way and a beautiful way."

From a cartographer's perspective, the Nolli project is a new way of
looking at maps because it welds spatial information to history in a way
that does more than just show where something is.

"We want to take something that is really a graphical database and turn it
into something that is digital and accessible and searchable," said
Steiner, who was a principal designer of the much-heralded "Atlas of
Oregon." "This is an opportunity to make use of all of the standards
developed for geographic information sharing and apply that to an exciting
map."

The work is attracting attention, and not just from map geeks, although
anyone with a penchant for such things could spend hours on the Web site.
People from all over the academic map are finding ways to use the map in
teaching and research.

"I used to think, 'Gee, maybe 12 people in the world are interested in
this,' " Tice said. "But it's been amazing to me because people in
sociology, people in history, people in romance languages, people in
geography are intrigued with this map because it provides so much detailed
information."

The Nolli Map is interesting from many perspectives. Not only is it
amazingly accurate considering its age, it also was the first to use dark
spaces to mark building shapes and light spaces to show streets and plazas
and was the first to be drawn with north at the top instead of east.

"When you say 'orient yourself,' that derives from the tradition of having
east 'up' on a map," said Tice, noting that one meaning of "orient" is
east. "Nolli changed that by putting north 'up.' "

So far, Tice and Steiner have only begun to program into the Web page all
of the information about Rome they eventually hope to have. Archaeological
sites, catacombs, cafés, topography and past flood zones are just some of
the layers they hope to add to the map if some of the grants they are
seeking come through.

"To be honest, we've really just scratched the surface of what's possible,"
Steiner said.

INTERACTIVE MAP

On the Web: <http://nolli.uoregon.edu>nolli.uoregon.edu

--
Dr. Duane F.
Marble Email: <mailto:marble.1@osu.edu>marble.1@osu.edu
2226 Primrose Lane Telephone: (541) 902-8837
Florence, OR 97439 Cell: (541) 991-1730

_______________________________________________________________
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hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht.
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Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
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List Information: http://www.maphist.info

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: vanderkr18@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:08:51 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: Re: [MapHist] Re: Article on digital Nolli map X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.585 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: daan and the rest: I suppose Tice meant that Nolli's plan is the first plan of Rome with north at the top. I checked some older plans of Rome (town atlases of Braun & Hogenberg, Janssonius, Blaeu, and De Wit) and there the plans of Rome have east at the top. Peter At 00:10 1-8-2005, you wrote: >Translating from English to English nearly always loses something, I've >found. I have to assume Tice knows what he's talking about, but whatever >it is he's trying to say just isn't coming across the news medium >correctly. Obviously plenty of maps were 'oriented' with north toward the >top long before Nolli. > >Regards, >daan Strebe > > >In a message dated 7/31/05 11:52:08 AM, owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl writes: >> >>A Roman mapsterpiece >> >>By Greg Bolt >>The Register-Guard >> >> >>The Nolli Map is interesting from many perspectives. Not only is it >>amazingly accurate considering its age, it also was the first to use dark >>spaces to mark building shapes and light spaces to show streets and plazas >>and was the first to be drawn with north at the top instead of east. >> >>"When you say 'orient yourself,' that derives from the tradition of having >>east 'up' on a map," said Tice, noting that one meaning of "orient" is >>east. "Nolli changed that by putting north 'up.' " > > >YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY >Dr Peter van der Krogt >Map Historian, Explokart Research Program >Faculty of Geo-sciences, University of Utrecht >P.O. Box 80.115 >3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands >e-mail: peter@vanderkrogt.net >Homepage: >MapHist: >Genealogy: >Elementymology: >Columbus Monuments: > >YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:16:41 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Francis Herbert" (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] FW: ICHC, Budapest, July 2005: publications X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.56 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039] X-Spam-Level: Some ‘MapHist’ subscribers - especially those who could not attend - might care to learn of three publications relevant to last week’s successful 21st International Conference on the History of Cartography, held mostly in Budapest. Here are bibliographic details of three of them - Magyarországi hadi térképek a XVI. századtól a II. világháborúig = Hungarian military maps from the 16th century to the Second World War / felelõs kiadó: Dr. Holló József vezérõrnagy, . . . - Budapest Hadtörténeti Intézet és Múzeum [, 2005]. - 23p. : ill., maps (chiefly col., including on front cover) ; 17 x 24 cm. - In E & Hu. - Transl. of title from E transl. (p.[13] onwards). - “A kiállítás anyagát válogatta, a katalógust készítette: Dr. Jankó Annamária és a Hadtörténeti Térképtár munkatársai . . . = Choosing of maps of the exhibition and elaboration of the catalogue by: Dr. Jankó Annamária and colleagues of the Maproom . . .”. - Lists and describes 42 MS & printed items (including aerial photogr.) - some photogr. copies of originals in Kriegsarchiv, Vienna - from that of W. Lazius (Vienna, 1556/57) to 25 - 27.12.1944 (situation of operations marked on 1:500 000-scale aeronautical map) The summaries of the articles published in Cartographica Hungarica (1992-2004) = Cartographica Hungarica (1992-2004) : a tanulmányok összefoglalói / Zsolt Török. - In Cartographica Hungarica : térképtörténeti magazin = Cartographica Hungarica : magazine for map history (Balatonkenese : Szathmáry Tibor), 2005 július = July 2005, 9, 5-21. - Includes ‘Indexes = Név-, és tárgymutató’ (i.e. of personal names and of subjects [& geogr. names]) compiled by Zsombor Nemerkényi (et al.) to the previous 8 volumes : p.20-21. - The summ. here are in E & Hu only, although the originals were chiefly in D or E and a few in F or Hu. - NB: all the original articles (with note on presence, and languages, of summ.) were recorded (with annotations on their contents) in the earlier annual, or semi-annual, compilations of the ‘Imago Mundi Bibliography’. - Special issue on occasion of 21st Internat. Conf. on the Hist. of Cartogr., Budapest, 17-22.7.2005 Szent helyek a térképeken : térkérptörténeti kiállítás a Pannonhalmi Fõapátság és a Schottenstift (Bécs) anyagából / [szerkesztette: Dr. Török Zsolt ; fordítók: Lengyel Péter, Szõni Péter] = Sacred places on maps : a cartographic exhibition from the collections of Pannonhalma (Hungary) and Schottenstift (Vienna) / [edited by Dr. Zsolt Török ; English translation: Péter Lengyel, Péter Szõni]. - Pannonhalma : Pannonhalma Fõapátság, 2005. - 202 [i.e. 309]p. : ill., maps (some col.) ; 24 cm. - Statements of authority taken from prelims (other than recto of t.p.). - Pages [203]-[309] are unnumbered. - In E & Hu. - Contents: Szent helyek a térképeken / Török Zs. (p.7-18) - Sacred places on maps (p.19-31) - Szent földrajz / C. Delano Smith & A. Scafi (p.33-54) [NB: this Hu transl. contains 3 various ill. that are not in E original text (vide infra); refs to these ill. are on p.42 (129), 46 (133), & 48 (135) respectively] - Szent helyek Palesztina középkori térképein / P.D.A. Harvey (p.55-69) - ‘Helytelen’ nevek : hogyan ‘találták fel’ a szent helyeket a zarándokok és a térképészek / R.E. Hassner (p.71-93) - Ego sum via : keresztény utak a modern európai térképészet kialakulásában / Török Zs. (p.95-119) - Sacred geography / C. Delano Smith & A. Scafi (p.121-140) - Holy places on medieval maps of Palestine / P.D.A. Harvey (p.141-154) - Names without places : how pilgrims and mapmakers invent sacred places / R.E. Hassner (p.155-176) - Ego sum via : Christian itineraries in the evolution of modern European cartography / Zs. Török (p.177-202) - Katalógus = Catalogue (p.[207]-[309]) [from anon. ‘Tabula Peutingeriana’ of 4th century AD in ed. of F.C. Scheyb (Vienna : Trattner, 1753) and ‘Secu[n]da etas mundi’ (etc.) in Liber cronicarum . . . of H. Schedel (Augsburg : J. Schönsperger, 1497) to ‘Palesztina : a biblai események színhelye’ of M. Kogutowicz at scale 1:200 000 (Budapest : Magyar Földrajzi Intézet [, 1901]). - ISBN 963-90-5367-8 Also worth pursuing (it’s still in print, and available generally in stores Budapest) is – Magyarország története térképeken / Papp-Váry Árpád [; a kötetet szakmailig ellenõrizte: Dr. Plihál Katalin] = [Hungary on historical maps / Árpád Papp-Váry ; professional supervision of the volume: Dr. Katalin Plihál]. – [Budapest : ] Kossuth kiadó ; Cartographia, 2002. – 279p. : ill., maps (chiefly col.) ; 34 cm. – Bibliogr. (to 2002): p.266-[270]. – Summ. in E (‘Hungary on maps [sic]’) & listing of contents in E: p.275-276. – Describes & illustrates ca 100 MS & printed items (including globe & relief model) from Classical (Ptolemy), Ebstorf, al-Idrisi examples to ca 2002, chiefly in Magyar Országos Levéltár [= Hungarian State Archives], Hadtörténeti Intézet és Múzeum [= Military History Institute & Museum], & in Országos Széchényi Könyvtár [= National Széchényi Library]. – ISBN 963-09-4387-5 If any Hungarian diacritics (e.g. the double accent acute) are replaced by even stranger symbols on your screen do not be surprised – even the printer of the July 2005 special issue of Cartographica Hungarica was unable to cope with these in the ‘Subjects [& geogr. names]’ index on p.21! The first and second monographic publications above were received by registered participants; this present listing does not take into account the map facsimiles, paprika, & the ‘Dr. Torok’ [sic] eucalyptus-menthol cough sweets received. For preliminary publicity concerning the 22nd ICHC see www.ichc2007.ch Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps) f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see ‘Collections’ – including some online catalogues (including many maps up to ca 1940)] http://images.rgs.org/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:28:28 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: List-owner MapHist Subject: [MapHist] List-owner's message: addresses removed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.598 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Because of error messages for a long time, the following e-mail addresses are removed from the maphist-digest list: Brian Crawley Russell, Mark Mr." "Hendrikson, Tiina" Regourd2@aol.com If somebody knows the owner of (one of) these e-mail addresses, please inform him or her that they have to re-s*bscribe maphist with a working e-mail address. Thanks Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:38:11 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: List-owner MapHist Subject: [MapHist] List-owner's message: addresses removed (from the 'normal' list) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.598 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Because of error messages for a long time, the following e-mail addresses are removed from the maphist list: "Stephen Pober" Olivier.CHAPUIS@wanadoo.fr ("Over quota") kmosena@EXECPC.COM If somebody knows the owner of (one of) these e-mail addresses, please inform him or her that they have to re-s*bscribe maphist with a working e-mail address. Thanks Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 1 X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 2 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Nick Millea To: maphist-l Subject: [MapHist] Obituary - Lord Wardington Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:53:29 +0100 (GMT Standard Time) X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.1.5 Build (43) X-Authentication: none X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.596 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level: Dear Maphisters, Sad news about atlas collector Lord Wardington. His obitituary appeared in 'The Times' of 3 August: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,60-1718402,00.html Nick Millea ________________________________________________________ Nick Millea Map Librarian, Bodleian Library, Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BG, UK tel: +44 1865 287119 fax: +44 1865 277139 email: nam@bodley.ox.ac.uk homepage: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/guides/maps/ ________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Identifying world map from Chanlaire and Mentelle atlas Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:30:35 -0500 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Identifying world map from Chanlaire and Mentelle atlas Thread-Index: AcWYYdHJW9WYXm8jSwej+cAt+kb39A== From: "Cook, Karen S" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2005 19:30:36.0181 (UTC) FILETIME=[D28FB450:01C59861] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.601 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level: Spencer Library, University of Kansas has just acquired a rectangular world map [Mercator projection] that probably comes from a late 18th-early 19th-century French atlas by Chanlaire and Mentelle. I know they published a number of atlases and works on geography separately and together; such a world map might have appeared in more than one of their publications. From the credits and plate numbers is it possible to identify which of their publications this map appeared in? I don't have access to any of the Chanlaire and Mentelle atlases here and hope someone who does will help me out by looking for this rectangular world map. Karen Cook Assistant Special Collections Librarian Spencer Research Library University of Kansas Description of World Map Title block (rectangle in upper right corner): Mappe-monde suivant la projection des cartes réduites, ou l'on a tracé les routes de la Capitaine Bougainville et les deux derniers voyages du Capitaine Cook. Par E. Mentelle Membre de l'Institut National des Sciences et Professeur aux Ecoles Centrales du Départem[en]t de la Seine. Et P.G. Chanlaire l'un des auteurs de l'Atlas National. An VI. A Paris chez les auteurs, P.G. Chanlaire Rue Geoffroy-Langevin, no. 7. Et E. Mentelle Cour du Louvre, no. 7. Engraver (lower left margin): P.F. Tardieu sculp. Plate numbers: (upper left margin, engraved): No. 4. (upper right margin, engraved): 2 (verso, upper right corner, manuscript): 5 Copper engraving, outline hand color around continents. Dimensions (inches): (sheet edges): 17.25" x 22.5", formerly bound centerfold in volume (traces of binding strip along centerfold still present) (outer neatline): 12.75" x 16.75" Provenance (rectangular stamp in upper right below title block): A. Sonnié-Moret _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:39:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [MapHist] Identifying world map from Chanlaire and Mentelle atlas From: To: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.7) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.592 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007] X-Spam-Level: Karen, I'm at work, but when I get home this evening, I may be able to help you, IF the map has a "mer de l'ouest" in North West Noth America. Does it? Don McGuirk > Spencer Library, University of Kansas has just acquired a rectangular world map > [Mercator projection] that probably comes from a late 18th-early 19th-century > French atlas by Chanlaire and Mentelle. I know they published a number of atlases > and works on geography separately and together; such a world map might have > appeared in more than one of their publications. From the credits and plate > numbers is it possible to identify which of their publications this map appeared > in? > > I don't have access to any of the Chanlaire and Mentelle atlases here and hope > someone who does will help me out by looking for this rectangular world map. > > Karen Cook > Assistant Special Collections Librarian > Spencer Research Library > University of Kansas > > Description of World Map > > Title block (rectangle in upper right corner): Mappe-monde suivant la projection > des cartes réduites, ou l'on a tracé les routes de la Capitaine Bougainville et > les deux derniers voyages du Capitaine Cook. Par E. Mentelle Membre de l'Institut > National des Sciences et Professeur aux Ecoles Centrales du Départem[en]t de la > Seine. Et P.G. Chanlaire l'un des auteurs de l'Atlas National. An VI. A Paris chez > les auteurs, P.G. Chanlaire Rue Geoffroy-Langevin, no. 7. Et E. Mentelle Cour du > Louvre, no. 7. > > Engraver (lower left margin): P.F. Tardieu sculp. > > Plate numbers: > (upper left margin, engraved): No. 4. > (upper right margin, engraved): 2 > (verso, upper right corner, manuscript): 5 > > Copper engraving, outline hand color around continents. > > Dimensions (inches): > (sheet edges): 17.25" x 22.5", formerly bound centerfold in volume (traces of > binding strip along centerfold still present) (outer neatline): 12.75" x 16.75" > > Provenance (rectangular stamp in upper right below title block): A. Sonnié-Moret > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and > do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of > Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:55:45 -0400 From: "Edward James Redmond" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Identifying world map from Chanlaire and Mentelle atlas X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Karen: LC holds three editions of the Chanlaire and Mentelle "Atlas Universal..." and a version of your map appears in all three: G1019 .M39 1807b - Phillips 712 G1019 .M39 1807 - Phillips 3539 G1019 .M39 1801 - Phillips 6011 The subject map in Phillips 6011 has a slightly different title while that in Phillips 3539 is smaller by nearly an inch. The map in Phillips 712 matches your dimensions, outline hand color, and engraved plate information cited. This particular atlas is in a recent binding but this plate also appears to have once been center bound. Our brief catalog record for this item: Atlas universel de géographie physique et politique, ancienne et moderne, LC Control Number: unk81005090 Type of Material: Cartographic Material Personal Name: Mentelle, Edme, 1730-1815. [from old catalog] Main Title: [Atlas universel de géographie physique et politique, ancienne et moderne, Published/Created: Paris, Chez les auteurs, 1807?] Related Names: Chanlaire, Pierre Grégoire, 1757-1817, [from old catalog] joint author. Description: p. cm. Subjects: Atlases, French. [from old catalog] LC Classification: G1019 .M39 1807b (Map Cage) Geog. Area Code: e-fr--- LC CALL NUMBER: G1019 .M39 1807b Vault I hope this helps - Ed Ed Redmond Geography & Map Reference Specialist Geography and Map Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave, SE Washington, DC 20540-4650 (202) 707-8548 ered@loc.gov >>> kscook@ku.edu 08/03/05 3:30 PM >>> Spencer Library, University of Kansas has just acquired a rectangular world map [Mercator projection] that probably comes from a late 18th-early 19th-century French atlas by Chanlaire and Mentelle. I know they published a number of atlases and works on geography separately and together; such a world map might have appeared in more than one of their publications. From the credits and plate numbers is it possible to identify which of their publications this map appeared in? I don't have access to any of the Chanlaire and Mentelle atlases here and hope someone who does will help me out by looking for this rectangular world map. Karen Cook Assistant Special Collections Librarian Spencer Research Library University of Kansas Description of World Map Title block (rectangle in upper right corner): Mappe-monde suivant la projection des cartes réduites, ou l'on a tracé les routes de la Capitaine Bougainville et les deux derniers voyages du Capitaine Cook. Par E. Mentelle Membre de l'Institut National des Sciences et Professeur aux Ecoles Centrales du Départem[en]t de la Seine. Et P.G. Chanlaire l'un des auteurs de l'Atlas National. An VI. A Paris chez les auteurs, P.G. Chanlaire Rue Geoffroy-Langevin, no. 7. Et E. Mentelle Cour du Louvre, no. 7. Engraver (lower left margin): P.F. Tardieu sculp. Plate numbers: (upper left margin, engraved): No. 4. (upper right margin, engraved): 2 (verso, upper right corner, manuscript): 5 Copper engraving, outline hand color around continents. Dimensions (inches): (sheet edges): 17.25" x 22.5", formerly bound centerfold in volume (traces of binding strip along centerfold still present) (outer neatline): 12.75" x 16.75" Provenance (rectangular stamp in upper right below title block): A. Sonnié-Moret _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Rodney Shirley" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Obituary - Lord Wardington Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:16:01 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.402 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.197, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Maphisters... Yes, as Nick Millea has said, sad news about Lord Wardington, Bic to his many friends. He died on 6 July and a rather more detailed obituary appeared in 'The Independent' on 12 July. The link is: http://news.independent.co.uk/people/obituaries/article298488.ece Rodney Shirley rodneyws@dial.pipex.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Millea" To: "maphist-l" Sent: 03 August 2005 11:53 Subject: [MapHist] Obituary - Lord Wardington > Dear Maphisters, > > Sad news about atlas collector Lord Wardington. > > His obitituary appeared in 'The Times' of 3 August: > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,60-1718402,00.html > > Nick Millea > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Identifying world map from Chanlaire and Mentelle atlas Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:48:08 +1000 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Identifying world map from Chanlaire and Mentelle atlas Thread-Index: AcWYYdHJW9WYXm8jSwej+cAt+kb39AAQkA3g From: "Maura O'Connor" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.592 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Dear Karen We have one item which appears to fit (at least by title) , as per the following record: Mentelle, E. (Edme), 1730-1815. Mappe-monde suivant la projection des cartes reduites [cartographic material] : ou l'on a trace les routes de Mr. de Bougainville, et les deux derniere voyages du Capitaine Cook. Scale [ca. 1:100 000 000] [Paris : Bernard, 1804-[1805] 1 map : col. ; 30.5 x 41.5 cm. World map showing tracks of Bougainville and Cook. In French. In lower left margin: P.F. Tardieu sculp. In lower right margin: Andre scrip. Plate 2 probably from: Atlas de tableaux et de cartes grave par P.F. Tardieu pour le cours complet de cosmographie, de geographie, de chronologie et d'histoire ancienne et moderne / E. Mentelle. Paris : Bernard, 1804-[1805] Prime meridians: Ferro and Paris. Cited In: Phillips, 706 Yours sincerely Maura O'Connor Map Curator National Library of Australia Canberra ACT 2600 Phone : 61 2 6262 1280 Fax: 61 2 6161 1653 Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Cook, Karen S Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2005 5:31 AM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Identifying world map from Chanlaire and Mentelle atlas Spencer Library, University of Kansas has just acquired a rectangular world map [Mercator projection] that probably comes from a late 18th-early 19th-century French atlas by Chanlaire and Mentelle. I know they published a number of atlases and works on geography separately and together; such a world map might have appeared in more than one of their publications. From the credits and plate numbers is it possible to identify which of their publications this map appeared in? I don't have access to any of the Chanlaire and Mentelle atlases here and hope someone who does will help me out by looking for this rectangular world map. Karen Cook Assistant Special Collections Librarian Spencer Research Library University of Kansas Description of World Map Title block (rectangle in upper right corner): Mappe-monde suivant la projection des cartes réduites, ou l'on a tracé les routes de la Capitaine Bougainville et les deux derniers voyages du Capitaine Cook. Par E. Mentelle Membre de l'Institut National des Sciences et Professeur aux Ecoles Centrales du Départem[en]t de la Seine. Et P.G. Chanlaire l'un des auteurs de l'Atlas National. An VI. A Paris chez les auteurs, P.G. Chanlaire Rue Geoffroy-Langevin, no. 7. Et E. Mentelle Cour du Louvre, no. 7. Engraver (lower left margin): P.F. Tardieu sculp. Plate numbers: (upper left margin, engraved): No. 4. (upper right margin, engraved): 2 (verso, upper right corner, manuscript): 5 Copper engraving, outline hand color around continents. Dimensions (inches): (sheet edges): 17.25" x 22.5", formerly bound centerfold in volume (traces of binding strip along centerfold still present) (outer neatline): 12.75" x 16.75" Provenance (rectangular stamp in upper right below title block): A. Sonnié-Moret _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:06:23 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] AAG CFP: Post-Cartographic Map Design X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.166 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.433, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Non-member submission from [J B Krygier ] ======================================================================== == Call for Papers: Post-Cartographic Map Design Association of American Geographers Annual Meeting March 7-11 2006, Chicago Illinois ======================================================================== == Academic cartography, particularly cartographic design, is in decline. Arthur Robinson's 1952 book "The Look of Maps" defined an ambitious agenda for cartographic design research, based on the perceptual capacity of map users, leading to more functional maps (form follows function). Assessment of the results of Robinson's empirical agenda are mixed. Academic cartographers have been replaced by GIS specialists, or have shifted to cognitive studies of spatial understanding, or to complex technological applications. Academic GIS researchers have been critical of the map and visual models in GIS. At the same time, more maps than ever are being designed and made, because of the rapid diffusion of GIS software on desktop computers and internet mapping. This session seeks researchers and practitioners creating maps and working with models of map design outside of the traditional empirical model that dominated cartographic design research in the latter half of the 20th century: people who think critically about maps and map design and engage in actual map design and construction based on their ideas. Many artists have embraced the map in such a manner. Map design is often seen as the prettying up of the map - the "artistic" part of cartography. Yet substantive artists are seldom concerned with the pretty. "Map artists ... claim the power of the map to achieve ends other than the social reproduction of the status quo. Map artists do not reject maps. They reject the authority claimed by normative maps uniquely to portray reality as it is, that is, with dispassion and objectivity..." (Wood & Krygier, 2006). Map artist kanarinka claims artists working with maps have an "ethics of experimentation" that is "anything but arbitrary." "...artists experiment with a particular territory in specific ways to reach unforseen destinations." (kanarinka, 2006). The diverse work of map artists nearly always seeks to be evocative, challenging, make us see and think about something differently, or undermine assumptions. Other models of map design include narrative and ambiguity, suggested by literary and film theory, multiple mappings (or counter-mappings) suggested by humanistic and critical theory, and political mapping informed by post-structuralist theory focused on the complexities of power. Post-cartographic map design research and map creation seeks not to explicitly critique traditional, Robinsonian cartographic design research, nor to replace it, but to expand the way we think about, design, and create maps in our map immersed society. 250 word abstract due to session organizer by September 18, 2005 Quotes from "Art & Mapping" Special Issue of (Winter 2006) http://makingmaps.owu.edu/postcartdesign.html Organizer and Contact: JB Krygier Department of Geology and Geography Ohio Wesleyan University jbkrygier@owu.edu ======================================================================== == -- j b k r y g i e r a s s o c i a t e p r o f e s s o r o f g e o g r a p h y o h i o w e s l e y a n u n i v e r s i t y g e o l o g y a n d g e o g r a p h y d e l a w a r e o h 4 3 0 1 5 pho 740 368 3622 | fax 740 368 3999 jbkrygier@owu.edu | http://www.owu.edu/~jbkrygie/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:08:07 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] Are these maps yours? X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.173 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.426, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: This message had a wrong content-type and was not distributed automatically. Peter From: Robert Karrow The four maps listed here were found in the possession of the person apprehended in New Haven in July and charged with the theft of maps from a research library. These maps are apparently not from that library, and authorities would like to ascertain their provenance. Please check your collections to see if you are missing any of these maps. If you think any of these maps might be yours, please contact me off-list and I will forward the information to the authorities. 1) Thorne world map from Hakluyt's Divers Voyages (1582) illustrated here: <<3D.htm>http://history.binghamton.edu/conference/> 2) John Foster map of New England, from Hubbard's Narrative of the= troubles in New England (1677) illustrated here: <<3D.htm>http://www.americancenturies.mass.edu/classroom/curricul= um_5th/lesson3/1677map.html> 3) Jesuit map of Lake Superior, 1671 illustrated here:= <<3D.htm>http://www.museum.state.il.us/muslink/nat_amer/post/html= s/popups/hi_contact_map.html> 4) Rouillard, Carte g=E9n=E9rale de la Nouvelle France, 1671,= from Le Clerc's Premier =C9tablissement de la Foy= illustrated here: <<3D.htm>http://www.library.upenn.edu/exhibits/rbm/kislak/lands/n= fmap.html> Robert W. Karrow, Jr. Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections The Newberry Library 60 W. Walton Street Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 Tel: 312-255-3554 FAX: 312-255-3646 E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org <3D.htm>www.newberry.org For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see <3D.htm>www.biblioserver.com/newberry _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "john a w lock" To: Subject: [MapHist] The U.S. Geological Survey strategy ... Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:15:04 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.924 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.675, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: http://www.fcw.com/article89742-08-01-05-Print USGS faces a challenge in protecting cartographic data Records maintenance plagues almost all federal agencies. And map preservation efforts face the same obstacles as the safekeeping of other government documents. To address the challenge, National Archives and Records Administration officials will choose a design for the $500 million Electronic Records Archives project, which they hope to have in place by 2011. ERA is an ambitious federal effort to save the government's records, regardless of format, and make them accessible with future hardware and software. BY Aliya Sternstein Published on Aug. 1, 2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:02:21 -0400 From: Steve Hanly User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] August 5 article on map thefts in the Hartford Courant X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.061 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.538, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: The latest installment: http://www.courant.com/hc-mapthief0805.artaug05,0,7983747.story Steve Hanly Bickerstaff's Books, Maps &c. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: akermanj@mail.newberry.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:55:06 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Jim Akerman Subject: [MapHist] call for papers X-Spam: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.53 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_00_10=1.068, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level: Dear Maphisters,

Please note and pass on the following call for papers.

Many thanks,

Jim Akerman

***************************************************************************************************************

The Newberry Library has issued a call for papers to be presented at "Early American Cartographies," a cross-disciplinary conference that will be held at the Library on March 2-4, 2006. The conference is sponsored by the Society of Early Americanists and the Newberry Library's Center for Renaissance Studies, Hermon Dunlap Smith Center for the History of Cartography, D'Arcy McNickle Center for American Indian History, Dr. William M. Scholl Center for Family and Community History, and the University of Notre Dame. This conference investigates the enduring significance of space and place in scholarship of the early Americas against the backdrop of the Newberry Library's world-class cartographic holdings. We welcome proposals for papers and panels on the materials and metaphors of mapping the early Americas from marchlands to middle grounds, from borderlands to contact zones, from frontiers to public spheres.

Papers concerning the following topics are especially welcome: Native American mapping; cartographic fantasies and maps in literature from the Americas; cartography's relations to imperial conflicts and colonialism in the Americas; the portrayal of rural and urban spaces; Midwestern and Great Plains geographic space and the Jeffersonian grid; the map trade and map consumption in the Americas; maps used in land speculation, Boosterism, and promotional schemes; mapping and exploration; the mapping of early transportation networks; the history of pedagogic cartography; and the use of maps in contemporary high school and college classrooms.

Those interested in participating should submit a 350-word abstract for receipt by October 1, 2005 to renaissance@newberry.org (e-mail preferred) or:

Center for Renaissance Studies
The Newberry Library
60 W. Walton St.
Chicago, IL 60610-7324

Please contact us at renaissance@newberry.org or 312-255-3514 for more information.

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: cobb@pop.fas.harvard.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:10:19 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: David Cobb Subject: Re: [MapHist] August 5 article on map thefts in the Hartford Courant X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Steve - It only seems to be getting worse. David At 11:02 AM 8/5/2005, you wrote: >The latest installment: > >http://www.courant.com/hc-mapthief0805.artaug05,0,7983747.story > >Steve Hanly >Bickerstaff's Books, Maps &c. > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info *************************************************************************** David A. Cobb Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection FAX 617.496.0440 Harvard College Library Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138 HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS **************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:57:10 -0700 Subject: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952) From: Penny L.Richards To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.299 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: American actress, novelist, and suffragist Elizabeth Robins was born on this date in 1862. Of interest to historians of cartography is her 1903 article, "The Alaska Boundary (Some Opinions of Those Who Cross It," _Fortnightly Review_ (74)(November 2, 1903): 792-799, in which she reports passenger conversations aboard an Alaska Commercial steamer while she was traveling up the Yukon River. It's online (full text, open access) at http://www.jsu.edu/depart/english/robins/alask/alabound.htm A sample passage: "It isn't about this part of the Boundary there'll be any trouble," said a Dominion surveyor, wagging his head wisely. "Where does the trouble come in, then?" "Why, anywhere, from Mount St. Elias to the 56th degree N. Latitude." A Nebraska prospector got out his tattered map, and the men crowded round. For, in green, Rugg's Gold Fields gave the Official Boundary, as claimed by the United States, and in red the Canadian claim. "Why is the Line more important when it goes crossin' glayshers and frozen bays, than up here, where it crosses gold?" the prospector demanded of the surveyor. "A line over a bay crosses gold--if it's a good sea-port. We want Pyramid Harbour." "The British? oh, ay! They're grahnd at wantin' things," said a naturalised son of America. Penny L. Richards PhD Research Scholar, UCLA Center for the Study of Women Co-editor, H-Education and H-Disability turley2@earthlink.net _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 18:51:20 -0800 From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.474 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.126, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level: I believe this is Elizabeth Robins who was English and came to Nome to look for her brother. She wrote a book, "Raymond and I" about that search, followed by "Magnetic North". Since 1903 was the year the Alaska Boundary Commission met, the conversation would have centered around that subject. The 141st Meridian had been chosen in 1825 when Russia and England agreed on it. (Am winging dates here as too lazy to check at the moment. Could have been 1826). No one cared a great deal until the Klondike Gold Rush. England badly wanted saltwater access, but the Transfer of Alaska from Russia to the United States in 1867 clearly stated the line along the coast of Southeast Alaska would run along the crests of the Coast Range. And why did the panhandle of Southeast Alaska stay with the rest of Alaska? Because Sitka was the capital and Russia did not want to bargain it away. Even today there are boundary problems. There is an agreed-upon 40-mile free zone in the boundary between Canada and Alaska on the south where both countries can fish. Occasionally fishers from one country or the other will stray out of the zone and there's a quarrel. The boundary between Alaska and Russia in the Bering Sea has also been disputed. The area is thought to be rich in oil and gas and several major oil companies tried to change the demarkation line, so far with no success. (I expect they now plan to lease from Russia, if they haven't already.) Dee telling you far more about Alaska's boundaries than I expect you wanted to know On Aug 5, 2005, at 8:57 PM, Penny L.Richards wrote: > American actress, novelist, and suffragist Elizabeth Robins was > born on this date in 1862. Of interest to historians of > cartography is her 1903 article, "The Alaska Boundary (Some > Opinions of Those Who Cross It," _Fortnightly Review_ (74)(November > 2, 1903): 792-799, in which she reports passenger conversations > aboard an Alaska Commercial steamer while she was traveling up the > Yukon River. It's online (full text, open access) at > > http://www.jsu.edu/depart/english/robins/alask/alabound.htm > > A sample passage: > > "It isn't about this part of the Boundary there'll be any trouble," > said a Dominion surveyor, wagging his head wisely. > > "Where does the trouble come in, then?" > > "Why, anywhere, from Mount St. Elias to the 56th degree N. Latitude." > > A Nebraska prospector got out his tattered map, and the men crowded > round. For, in green, Rugg's Gold Fields gave the Official > Boundary, as claimed by the United States, and in red the Canadian > claim. > > "Why is the Line more important when it goes crossin' glayshers and > frozen bays, than up here, where it crosses gold?" the prospector > demanded of the surveyor. > > "A line over a bay crosses gold--if it's a good sea-port. We want > Pyramid Harbour." > > "The British? oh, ay! They're grahnd at wantin' things," said a > naturalised son of America. > > > Penny L. Richards PhD > Research Scholar, UCLA Center for the Study of Women > Co-editor, H-Education and H-Disability > turley2@earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > The Observatory, ABAA www.observatorybooks.com deelong@alaska.com 907/586-9676 200 North Franklin Street Juneau, Alaska, 99801 The bridge of life is sometimes found in the rainbow _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 12:12:19 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.379 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.220, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: >telling you far more about Alaska's boundaries than I expect >you wanted to know No, I want to know more, since I think Alaska is an interesting piece of the USA Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index.htm Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 20:38:30 -0700 Subject: Re: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952) From: Penny L.Richards To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.166 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: On Saturday, August 6, 2005, at 07:51 PM, Dee Longenbaugh wrote: > I believe this is Elizabeth Robins who was English and came to Nome to > look for her brother. She wrote a book, "Raymond and I" about that > search, followed by "Magnetic North". She lived in England through much of her adulthood, where she was active on the stage and in the suffrage movement, but she was born in Louisville, Kentucky (in 1862), raised in New York and Ohio, and began her acting career in New York and Boston. She maintained her American citizenship until her death in 1952. But otherwise, yes, you have the same Elizabeth Robins. Penny L. Richards PhD Research Scholar, UCLA Center for the Study of Women Co-editor, H-Education and H-Disability turley2@earthlink.net _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dh98pr6@cs.com Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 00:28:57 EDT Subject: Re: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 8001 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.359 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.968, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_20_30=0.226, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level: In a message dated 8/6/2005 10:52:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, deelong@alaska.com writes:

Even today there are boundary problems. There is an agreed-upon
40-mile free zone in the boundary between Canada and Alaska on the
south where both countries can fish. Occasionally fishers from one
country or the other will stray out of the zone and there's a quarrel.

Actually, it is fascinating. I'd welcome more. Slightly OT, but, if Canada has a potential boundary dispute in the west to go with the one with Denmark over Hans Island, can she deal with a two front war?

More seriously, are the areas the oil companies are interested in north of the Bering Straits? Is there a publicly available map of the prospective oil potential of the area?

Henry Sirotin X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:12:27 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: [MapHist] The place name Grieten X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.434 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.165, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: In my research for Hendrick Hamel, I stumble upon a person called Anthony Uldriksen from Grieten I am looking for this village, or city called Grieten. It will have been a Dutch translation of one or the other probably not so obscure village. In all the documents the spelling of the place name was consistent. The spelling of person's name not so. I do happen to know that the name Uldrik (in all it's varieties) was pretty common in the Groningen, East Friesland, Danmark and Norway. Does anyone have an idea?? http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch/dag6614se.htm http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/transcription/page1178a.html#Johannis Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index.htm Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Dr. Hanno V. J. KOLBE" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] The place name Grieten Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 14:55:20 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-AV-Checked: clean on smtp.evc.net X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.094 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.505, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Dear Henny [as no specific country was given could it be] "Gryten": Gem. in Norge (Norwegen), Amt Romsdal, 3029 Ew. Quellennachweis: Ritters Geograph.-Statist. Lexikon, Bd. A-K, 8. Aufl. (1895), Ed. J. Penzler, Otto Wiegand, Leipzig, Seite 749 or "Gieten": Gem. in Nederland (Niederlande), Prov. Drenthe, bei Assen, 2269 Ew. Postb. Quellennachweis: Ritters Geograph.-Statist. Lexikon, Bd. A-K, 8. Aufl. (1895), Ed. J. Penzler, Otto Wiegand, Leipzig, Seite 674 Entnommen aus Hic Leones, Ver. 1.1, Copyright 2003-2005 by Hic Leones EURL, Achenheim, France. Gem. = something close to township Ew. = Einwohner = inhabitants Greetings Hanno _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:56:47 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] The place name Grieten X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.467 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.132, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Dear Hanno I think you made with the first name the right one. I am also doing a lot of genealogical research and the name does occur in Groningen, but not in Gieten (I am in the possession of a pretty extensive database of persons in Gieten before 1800 as my ancestors came from there. In the mormon database I saw quite a few Anthoni Uldricks (a century or two later, but at least the combination is not uncommon) The only thing I don't know is if Gryten is big enough and near enough to the sea to provide sailors. At 21:55 07-08-05, you wrote: >Dear Henny > >[as no specific country was given could it be] > >"Gryten": >Gem. in Norge (Norwegen), Amt Romsdal, 3029 Ew. >Quellennachweis: >Ritters Geograph.-Statist. Lexikon, Bd. A-K, 8. Aufl. (1895), Ed. J. >Penzler, Otto Wiegand, Leipzig, Seite 749 > >or >"Gieten": > >Gem. in Nederland (Niederlande), Prov. Drenthe, bei Assen, 2269 Ew. Postb. >Quellennachweis: >Ritters Geograph.-Statist. Lexikon, Bd. A-K, 8. Aufl. (1895), Ed. J. >Penzler, Otto Wiegand, Leipzig, Seite 674 > >Entnommen aus Hic Leones, Ver. 1.1, Copyright 2003-2005 by Hic >Leones EURL, Achenheim, France. > >Gem. = something close to township >Ew. = Einwohner = inhabitants > >Greetings >Hanno > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index.htm Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 1 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Dr. Hanno V. J. KOLBE" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] The place name Grieten Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:29:29 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-AV-Checked: clean on smtp.evc.net X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.105 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.494, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Hi Henny, look Andrees Atlas 1899, p. 93, B5, (written Grytten) about 20 km south-south-east of Molde, and it looks as if it is about 2-3 km from the coast. On the other hand, there EVERYTHING is close to the coast... Greetings from sunny Alsace (far from the coast...) Hanno ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henny Savenije" To: Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] The place name Grieten > Dear Hanno > > I think you made with the first name the right one. I am also doing a lot > of genealogical research and the name does occur in Groningen, but not in > Gieten (I am in the possession of a pretty extensive database of persons > in Gieten before 1800 as my ancestors came from there. > > In the mormon database I saw quite a few Anthoni Uldricks (a century or > two later, but at least the combination is not uncommon) The only thing I > don't know is if Gryten is big enough and near enough to the sea to > provide sailors. > > At 21:55 07-08-05, you wrote: >>Dear Henny >> >>[as no specific country was given could it be] >> >>"Gryten": >>Gem. in Norge (Norwegen), Amt Romsdal, 3029 Ew. >>Quellennachweis: >>Ritters Geograph.-Statist. Lexikon, Bd. A-K, 8. Aufl. (1895), Ed. J. >>Penzler, Otto Wiegand, Leipzig, Seite 749 >> >>or >>"Gieten": >> >>Gem. in Nederland (Niederlande), Prov. Drenthe, bei Assen, 2269 Ew. Postb. >>Quellennachweis: >>Ritters Geograph.-Statist. Lexikon, Bd. A-K, 8. Aufl. (1895), Ed. J. >>Penzler, Otto Wiegand, Leipzig, Seite 674 >> >>Entnommen aus Hic Leones, Ver. 1.1, Copyright 2003-2005 by Hic Leones >>EURL, Achenheim, France. >> >>Gem. = something close to township >>Ew. = Einwohner = inhabitants >> >>Greetings >>Hanno >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >>hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >>the views of the author. >>List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang) > ----------------------------- > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to > discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and > Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through > Western Cartographic eyes > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan > (1797) > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index.htm Genealogy > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "angus murray" To: Subject: [MapHist] Plotting Sheets Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 21:15:47 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.007 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.607, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Does anyone know anything about the early history of the aircraft plotting sheet? Who invented it and when - and who were the early vendors. What variations were there. What does VP stand for, if anything? Thanks for your help, Mike _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 12:17:29 -0800 From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.48 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.120, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level: Thanks for the correction, Penny. In "Raymond and I" she mentions only coming from London. Didn't die until 1952 - my, my; would have thought long before then. Best, Dee On Aug 6, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Penny L.Richards wrote: > On Saturday, August 6, 2005, at 07:51 PM, Dee Longenbaugh wrote: > > >> I believe this is Elizabeth Robins who was English and came to >> Nome to look for her brother. She wrote a book, "Raymond and I" >> about that search, followed by "Magnetic North". >> > > She lived in England through much of her adulthood, where she was > active on the stage and in the suffrage movement, but she was born > in Louisville, Kentucky (in 1862), raised in New York and Ohio, and > began her acting career in New York and Boston. She maintained her > American citizenship until her death in 1952. > > But otherwise, yes, you have the same Elizabeth Robins. > > Penny L. Richards PhD > Research Scholar, UCLA Center for the Study of Women > Co-editor, H-Education and H-Disability > turley2@earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > The Observatory, ABAA www.observatorybooks.com deelong@alaska.com 907/586-9676 200 North Franklin Street Juneau, Alaska, 99801 The bridge of life is sometimes found in the rainbow _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:52:27 -0800 From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.359 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_10_20=0.246, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level: Just before the Cold War wound down, several major oil companies invested millions of dollars in the lower Bering Sea, according to the Alaska papers at the time. The State Department warned them their money might be wasted, as the companies wanted the demarcation line between Alaska and Russia changed. The treaty says the boundary starts exactly between the Diomede Islands, (which are three miles apart), at 65 degrees, 30' , thence due North. The line then proceeds south; passes midway between the island of St. Lawrence and Cape Chukotski to the meridian of 172 W Longitude, then midway between the island of Attu and the Copper Island (Commander Islands group), to the meridian of 193 W Longitude, including all the Aleutian Islands.

The companies wanted the boundary lines curved, rather than following the straight lines on the Treaty map. Today, I expect Russia would be happy to lease whatever the companies want, although I've not heard of any new exploration in the area. This would be a very difficult place to drill, as the Aleutian Islands are famous for some of the stormiest weather in the world. They are known as "the birthplace of the winds", and please don't ask me to explain why tremendous storms are born there. All I know is that people string lines between buildings in places so they don't blow away when crossing.

Oh, and for you sailors, the Bering Sea is one of the few places in the world where a thick fog and high winds can occur simultaneously. It's also as shallow as 30 feet in places.

A meteorologist recently told me that the winds blow both clockwise and counterclockwise and spill across the Alaska Peninsula, making Shelikof Strait, between the mainland and Kodiak Island, extremely dangerous.

And, folks, the latest U.S. Missile Defense platform, (Sea-Based X-Band Radar), which can hold 100 people and is semi-submersible, will be stationed off Adak. Doesn't that sound exciting?

According to my "DeLorme Gazetteer of Alaska", the southern boundary between Alaska and Canada, is titled "Indefinite Boundary". A few years ago, when a fishing dispute was on, some British Columbia fishers seized and occupied a State of Alaska ferry docked in Prince Rupert, B.C.. It caused quite an uproar. As I recall, the dread Canadian fleet was not called out; the respective State Departments handled it peacefully.

Dee

who is now pretty sure that's enough on the topic.

On Aug 6, 2005, at 8:28 PM, Dh98pr6@cs.com wrote:

In a message dated 8/6/2005 10:52:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, deelong@alaska.com writes:

Even today there are boundary problems. There is an agreed-upon
40-mile free zone in the boundary between Canada and Alaska on the
south where both countries can fish. Occasionally fishers from one
country or the other will stray out of the zone and there's a quarrel.

Actually, it is fascinating. I'd welcome more. Slightly OT, but, if Canada has a potential boundary dispute in the west to go with the one with Denmark over Hans Island, can she deal with a two front war?

More seriously, are the areas the oil companies are interested in north of the Bering Straits? Is there a publicly available map of the prospective oil potential of the area?

Henry Sirotin

Dee Longenbaugh

The Observatory, ABAA

www.observatorybooks.com

deelong@alaska.com

907/586-9676

200 North Franklin Street

Juneau, Alaska, 99801

Since 1977

The bridge of life is sometimes found in the rainbow

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dh98pr6@cs.com Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:07:36 EDT Subject: Re: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 8001 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.515 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=1.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_30_40=0.021, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level: Dear Dee,

Thanks for the information on the oil issue, and the boundary disputes. Lately, I've been looking at some of the nineteenth century cartography on this issue. Straight lines all.

I think I can explain the weather conditions for you, if you want to know- contact me off list.

Henry Sirotin X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 13:11:31 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.489 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: >who is now pretty sure that's enough on the topic. Well, you still don't bore me ;-) Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index.htm Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 0 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-IronPort-AV: i="3.95,173,1120449600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="71256094:sNHT37803996" From: "Charles Burroughs" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:18:03 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.699 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.878, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_30_40=0.021, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level:

Great Stories, Dee, about the high winds in the regions of which you speak.

Back in September of '65, when I was doing reconnaissance for the USC&GS worldwide network of satellite triangulation stations in Alaska (Barrow, St. Lawrence Is., Cold Bay in the Aleutians and Shemya out at the end of the Aleutian Chain), St. Lawrence Island was the most difficult to reach. I had to hole up in Nome for nearly a week until a small plane would even consider taking me across to NE Cape which had a small air strip in support of some sort of Defense installation. When the pilot finally got what he considered to be a satisfactory weather window, I still wonder how he managed to bring down that aircraft in one piece because of the strong crosswinds. After checking out NE Cape, Gambell, and Savoonga, for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which was access, I recommended that the station be established at Nome, which it was.

Charles @ Stepladder

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Dee Longenbaugh
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 10:52 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] August 6: Elizabeth Robins (1862-1952)

   Just before the Cold War wound down, several major oil companies invested millions of dollars in the lower Bering Sea, according to the Alaska papers at the time. The State Department warned them their money might be wasted, as the companies wanted the demarcation line between Alaska and Russia changed. The treaty says the boundary starts exactly between the Diomede Islands, (which are three miles apart), at 65 degrees, 30' , thence due North. The line then proceeds south; passes midway between the island of St. Lawrence and Cape Chukotski to the meridian of 172 W Longitude, then midway between the island of Attu and the Copper Island (Commander Islands group), to the meridian of 193 W Longitude, including all the Aleutian Islands.
    The companies wanted the boundary lines curved, rather than following the straight lines on the Treaty map. Today, I expect Russia would be happy to lease whatever the companies want, although I've not heard of any new exploration in the area. This would be a very difficult place to drill, as the Aleutian Islands are famous for some of the stormiest weather in the world. They are known as "the birthplace of the winds", and please don't ask me to explain why tremendous storms are born there. All I know is that people string lines between buildings in places so they don't blow away when crossing.

    Oh, and for you sailors, the Bering Sea is one of the few places in the world where a thick fog and high winds can occur simultaneously. It's also as shallow as 30 feet in places.

    A meteorologist recently told me that the winds blow both clockwise and counterclockwise and spill across the Alaska Peninsula, making Shelikof Strait, between the mainland and Kodiak Island, extremely dangerous.

   And, folks, the latest U.S. Missile Defense platform, (Sea-Based X-Band Radar), which can hold 100 people and is semi-submersible, will be stationed off Adak. Doesn't that sound exciting?

    According to my "DeLorme Gazetteer of Alaska", the southern boundary between Alaska and Canada, is titled "Indefinite Boundary". A few years ago, when a fishing dispute was on, some British Columbia fishers seized and occupied a State of Alaska ferry docked in Prince Rupert, B.C.. It caused quite an uproar. As I recall, the dread Canadian fleet was not called out; the respective State Departments handled it peacefully.

    Dee

who is now pretty sure that's enough on the topic.



On Aug 6, 2005, at 8:28 PM, Dh98pr6@cs.com wrote:

In a message dated 8/6/2005 10:52:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, deelong@alaska.com writes:

Even today there are boundary problems. There is an agreed-upon
40-mile free zone in the boundary between Canada and Alaska on the
south where both countries can fish. Occasionally fishers from one
country or the other will stray out of the zone and there's a quarrel.

Actually, it is fascinating. I'd welcome more. Slightly OT, but, if Canada has a potential boundary dispute in the west to go with the one with Denmark over Hans Island, can she deal with a two front war?

More seriously, are the areas the oil companies are interested in north of the Bering Straits? Is there a publicly available map of the prospective oil potential of the area?

Henry Sirotin

Dee Longenbaugh

The Observatory, ABAA

www.observatorybooks.com

deelong@alaska.com

907/586-9676

200 North Franklin Street

Juneau, Alaska, 99801

Since 1977

The bridge of life is sometimes found in the rainbow

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:45:45 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] The University of Texas at Arlington Libraries Cartographic Archivist (05-08-03-01-0102) Special Collections X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.18 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.419, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Non-member submission from ["Anderson, Crystal N" ] Cartographic Archivist (05-08-03-01-0102)=20 Special Collections The University of Texas at Arlington Libraries The University of Texas at Arlington Libraries seek a customer-focused, = service-oriented individual to serve as Cartographic Archivist in = Special Collections. The Cartographic Archivist provides public service = assistance and evaluates, selects, arranges and describes, and preserves = cartographic materials. The Cartographic Archivist also participates in = the planning and execution of outreach activities related to the = cartographic collections. =20 Duties include providing reference assistance for all areas of Special = Collections; providing leadership for other staff in cartographic = reference service; serving as subject specialist for the cartographic = collection, reading reviews and out-of-print dealers' catalogs to make = selections of cartographic material to be added to the collection; = participating in the planning and execution of outreach activities for = Special Collections especially in relation to the Garrett Endowment; = working with the Special Collections Cataloger to ensure bibliographic = access to and description of cartographic materials; coordinating the = biennial Virginia Garrett Lectures in the History of Cartography = (participates in selection of speakers and topics, organizes logistics = of schedule and events, and curates an exhibit in conjunction with the = Lectures); instructing classes, groups, and individuals in the use of = Special Collections materials, especially in the area of cartographic = research; collaborating with the Geographic Information Systems = Librarian to promote use of historic cartographic information; serving = as the liaison for Special Collections to the Center for Greater = Southwest Studies and the History of Cartography and to the History = Department's Garrett Endowed Chair for the History of Cartography; and = supporting Special Collections exhibits with cartographic content. Required Qualifications: ALA-accredited master's degree, or master's = degree in history (or related discipline) with nine hours of coursework = in archives administration. Two years' experience working in a map = collection, working in a special collections repository, or providing = library/archives reference service. Preferred Qualifications: Formal training in cartographic history and = geography; knowledge of historical, cartographic, and geographic = research methodology; experience working in a map collection; experience = working in a special collections environment; knowledge of the history = and geography of Texas and the Southwest; formal education or training = in archives; training in preservation procedures; working knowledge of = automated databases; familiarity with Geographic Information Systems; = reading knowledge of Spanish, French, German or Latin; experience = planning and organizing events; good interpersonal skills. Demonstrated ability to provide complex reference services in an = archival repository; to speak in public, analyze research materials, and = write effectively; to plan and carry out projects, prepare publications, = and direct the work of others; and to work with the public on a = sustained basis and as a team member.=20 Minimum Salary: $37,500 Annually Special Collections: The UTA Libraries' Special Collections collects = and provides access to historical materials in all formats relating to = Texas, the U.S.-Mexican War of 1846-1848, the cartographic history of = Texas and the Gulf of Mexico, and Mexico during the period 1810-1920. = Special Collections' holdings include more than 40,000 volumes, 8,000 = linear feet of manuscript and archival collections, 3.6 million = historical prints and negatives, 5,000 historical maps, and thousands of = items in other formats. Special Collections has a staff of ten FTEs, = including archivists, librarians and paraprofessionals. In addition, = Special Collections employs a varying number of students each semester. = The homepage for Special Collections can be found at: = http://library.uta.edu/Main/spco.uta =20 Review of applications will begin September 1. Applications will be = accepted until the position is filled. =20 Please apply for posting number 05-08-03-01-0102 at: 1) go to = www.uta.edu/jobs, or 2) come in person at 140 West Mitchell Street, = B200, Arlington, TX 76019. For questions and assistance, call = 817-272-3461. UTA is an EO/AA employer. Crystal N. Anderson Human Resources Employment Phone: (817) 272-3461 Email - cnanders@uta.edu Box 19175=A0 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Dessiou family: chart-makers Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 15:31:39 +0100 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Dessiou family: chart-makers Thread-Index: AcWc7w3zyhiVCelTS+uGCWm1YjVKFg== From: "Francis Herbert" To: , "A forum for issues related to map & spatial data librarianship" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.353 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_80_90=0.146, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_TEXT_AFTER_BODY=0.061, HTML_TEXT_AFTER_HTML=0.031] X-Spam-Level:

Someone, somewhere, sometime (last year and/or early this year?) was enquiring about Joseph, Joseph Foss, & Joseph Dessiou jr and their chart and sailing directions works. Even if it wasn’t you, dear reader, here’s a new publication that has been expected for a year or two –

From private to official hydrography : the charts and sailing directions of Joseph Dessiou (1743-1822) and his son, Joseph Foss Dessiou (1769-1853) / Susanna Fisher. - In The Mariner’s Mirror (London : Society for Nautical Research), August 2005, 91,3, [389]-409 : ill. - Refs: p.400-402. - Includes ‘Appendix: List of charts and sailing directions by Joseph Dessiou, Joseph Foss Dessiou, up to 1828 when he joined the Hydrographic Office, and Joseph Foss Dessiou, junior, with descriptions’ (locations given of exemplars of the MS and printed items ). - The Dessious had some works published and/or sold by by W. Faden, Laurie & Whittle, J. Hamilton Moore, P. Steel, Steel & Goddard, & by J. Wyld. - Includes ‘Items not located’ of ca 1804-07 (chiefly from evidence of A. Dalrymple’s list of 10.10.1807). - ISSN 0025-3359

Francis Herbert

f.herbert@rgs.org

http://www.rgs.org [see ‘Collections’ – including some online catalogues (e.g., many maps/charts up to ca 1940)]

http://images.rgs.org/

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:03:47 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] More on the map theft X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.186 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.413, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Non-member submission from ["Amherst Antiquarian Maps" ] This today in the = Boston Globe:=20 <3D.htm>http://www.boston.com:80/news/local/articles/2005/08/09/dealer_faces_probe_in_map_thefts Amherst=20 Antiquarian Maps P.O. Box 12 Amherst, MA 01004-0012,=20 USA Tel:=20 413-256-8900 Fax: 413-256-6291 <3D.htm>www.Amherst-maps.com Member, = International Antiquarian Mapsellers Association = _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:54:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Joel Kovarsky To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.506 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=1.093, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: This today in the = Boston Globe:=20 <3D.htm>http://www.boston.com:80/news/local/articles/2005/08/09/dealer_faces_probe_in_map_thefts The reporter authoring this piece indicated that Arader was going to initiate the formation a group of mapsellers with a code of ethics, in part as a response to this incident. Given the circumstances, I sent the following note to that reporter: I was reading your map theft article today. Re: Arader's comments about forming an organization that has a code of ethics for map dealers, it already exists. See www.antiquemapdealers.com (International Antiquarian Mapsellers Association), founded in 2002. Our members are appalled by what has happened, as it sets everyone concerned on edge. We can only assert that these thefts do not represent a common occurrence, and most dealers soundly condemn such actions, and would favor any reasonable approach to security to avoid such problems. The whole issue re: map thefts has been summarized online at: . Regards. Joel Kovarsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] Forbes Smiley coverage Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:19:14 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.569 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: With the appearance of Forbes Smiley in court two days ago, the volume of newspaper coverage in the US has increased. I have tried to list all the substantive articles I can find [many are just repeats] in the 'Latest News' area of the Thefts section of 'Map History' < http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html#lit >. Several of those have already been reported to MapHist, but some are new. Can you please tell me of others that you see, unless you are sending the details to MapHist anyway. I also noticed reports of widespread book thefts in New Zealand, on which, if interested, see: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3263381a11,00.html 29 April 2005 http://te.verweg.com/pipermail/msn-list/2005-July/001176.html 15 July 2005 There was a reference to Cook's diary but I could not see any reference to cartographic material. Does anybody know if maps were involved? Tony Campbell ****************************************** t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://www.maphistory.info/ [part of the WWW-Virtual Library] ****************************************** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: st007183@brandywine.otago.ac.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:16:24 +1200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Karen Craw Subject: Re: [MapHist] Forbes Smiley coverage/NZ book thefts X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: >In regards to the New Zealand situation as far as I am aware no maps are >involved other than those that are included in the books. Lists of books >have been arriving from the police to be checked against our holdings and >shelves. So far we have not found any missing. Other institutions have not >been so lucky. Karen >I also noticed reports of widespread book thefts in New Zealand, on which, >if interested, see: > >http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3263381a11,00.html 29 April 2005 > >http://te.verweg.com/pipermail/msn-list/2005-July/001176.html 15 July 2005 > >There was a reference to Cook's diary but I could not see any reference to >cartographic material. Does anybody know if maps were involved? > >Tony Campbell >****************************************** >t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > >'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' >http://www.maphistory.info/ > >[part of the WWW-Virtual Library] >****************************************** > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info Karen Craw Map Curator The Hocken Collections University of Otago PO Box 56 Dunedin New Zealand Ph 64 -03-479-8377 Fax 64-03-479-5078 email: karen.craw@library.otago.ac.nz http://www.library.otago.ac.nz/libs/hocken/index.html _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:17:45 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.57 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Colleagues, I wonder if this is the time to raise some of the broader issues that relate to the allegations surrounding Forbes Smiley. Much of the argument below takes forward the thoughts prompted by the Bellwood/Perry thefts in Europe a few years back, as set out in 'How should we respond to early map thefts?' < http://www.maphistory.info/response.html >. If you are seriously interested in these issues, please look at that. I will not repeat its points here. Bibliographical Aspects ------------------------ Where the earlier thefts mostly concerned maps removed from atlases, we now seem to be dealing with single maps removed from early printed books. The practical implications of this are significant. Whereas atlases are usually curated by map specialists (or at least their value and vulnerability are well understood), the map as text illustration will usually (and understandably) be found in a rare book collection. While the map specialists (curators, collectors, dealers) will tend to know of the existence and value of such maps, is the same true of the rare books curator? In how many of those public collections that are likely to hold such works is their special vulnerability understood? Steal one page from a first folio Shakespeare and you have nothing of value; slip into your jacket pocket a single sheet from a book with an early map of North America on it and you may have a readily saleable, broadly untraceable, artefact worth up to six figures in dollars. The obvious conclusion is that institutions need to identify what are, in terms of theft, possibly the *most vulnerable* items in their entire collections, and then ensure that they are consulted only under the strictest possible invigilation. Ideally, that would include CCTV, which has once again proved its worth. But how are these maps, and the books that should still contain them, to be identified? Again the answer is surely obvious: close cooperation between the map specialists and the rare books curators. For political reasons, this may not have happened in the past. It must surely be initiated now. We can be sure that the potential thief will have done their homework, even if the library hasn't. The (continuing) flood of newspaper articles has identified a few of the books/maps involved (see < http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html#lit >). But those are presumably just the tip of the iceberg. We are told that other libraries are checking their holdings. But what list are they using to do this? Does it just include the titles already mentioned? I sincerely hope it is more rigorous than that. It is of course very possible that there have been developments behind the scenes. But has anybody compiled the kind of list a conscientious thief might have prepared of early maps of North America, by working through bibliographies, dealers' lists (particuarly, perhaps, Forbes Smiley's), etc.? By his own admission, Smiley has been dealing for 25 years. If the allegations against him are found to be true, for how long might he have been pillaging libraries? And what might be the full range of material he could have targetted? Information-sharing (post-theft) ------------------------------- The main problem identified during the discussions three years ago was the lack of information-sharing between different groups (curators, dealers/auctions, law enforcement agencies). This was because of separatge (and often fragmented) networks that, in addition, were rarely as international as the trade in early maps. If a list has been compiled of all the books/maps known to have been involved this time (or even, ideally, a list of all those titles that are potentially relevant), how has this been circulated? Clearly, handing it to a potential thief should be avoided but is there yet any secure mechanism that can distribute such a list (assuming it exists) to all the libraries *throughout the world* that might be expected to hold early North American maps bound into books? And, for that purpose, would OCLC, RLIN, NUC, ESTC, etc. provide an adequate inventory of the relevant libraries? The British Library has discovered losses among the material Smiley consulted. What about the other major collections around Europe? Forbes Smiley is a map dealer and there are some curators who are suspicious of dealers in general. This is unjustified and counter-productive. The trade has its own organisations with codes of practice that allow it to police its members. It is significant that Smiley is reported as not being a member of such an organisation. Curators should also remember that, sadly, some of their members have been guilty of a betrayal of trust in the past. To avoid being the accidental conduit for stolen maps, dealers must know what has been taken, and in as much 'copy-specific' detail as possible if they are to help catch thieves. The need for libraries to disclose what they have lost, in full and as speedily as possible, was urged in < http://www.maphistory.info/response.html >. That policy, which is in line with recommendations from rare books organisations, seems now to be generally accepted, even if there has been no move to create the proposed central, web-based register of stolen maps. Forensic identification ---------------------- It has been rightly stated that it is very difficult to prove that a particular map came originally from a particular volume, unless there was a library stamp (which remains visible). In the case of an atlas map, it can often be shown to fit back exactly into its parent volume. The maps involved in this case, however, are likely to have been folded into the volume and to have a different overall size. However, the map may have left a 'footprint', particularly if it was folded several times - an indentation like a platemark, showing its original size. Even if the folds have subsequently been pressed out, they can usually be seen and measured, allowing the original size in the volume to be calculated precisely. There may perhaps be offsetting of the neighbouring text on the verso of the map, or matching worm-holes. All of which makes it important to attempt to match any suspect map with a vandalised volume. Given that these issues have wide relevance I would be grateful if this message might be copied to other interested lists. Thank you. Tony Campbell ****************************************** t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://www.maphistory.info/ [part of the WWW-Virtual Library] ****************************************** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair From: "Barry Ruderman" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at teamspirit.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.45 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.149, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Tony, Let me raise one issue that I believe has frustrated at least several dealers. At least one dealer and several institutions have stated to the media that Forbes Smiley has been suspected (and/or actively under investigation) for some time as a potential map thief. Unfortunately, this information was not shared with other institutions and the trade. Had anyone warned the institutions who were providing access to their collections and the dealers and collectors who were purchasing from Mr. Smiley that there was a serious concern, these innocent parties would have been on notice and better able to participate in the solution, perhaps at a much earlier point in time. Certainly, among members of the several trade organizations which are active in books and maps, there must be serious consideration given to the ethical ramifications of being aware of suspicious persons/activities, but not reporting them within the organization. A good argument can be made that by remaining silent, you contribute to the proliferation. Given that Mr. Smiley was a long standing (if oft discredited) part of the rare map trade (he had a well known reputation for failing to pay sellers for extended periods of time long before the current fiasco), it may have been more difficult to determine just how to respond to the suspicions, but at that point, caveat emptor/curator. The failure to disseminate the information has created a larger web of victims--collectors, dealers and institutions. There is no ready solution (and, as an amateur ethicist, I would opine that there is no right answer), but the issue certainly merits discussion and perhaps a more uniform set of expectations among institutions and the trade. Barry Ruderman > Colleagues, > > I wonder if this is the time to raise some of the broader issues that > relate > to the allegations surrounding Forbes Smiley. Much of the argument below > takes forward the thoughts prompted by the Bellwood/Perry thefts in Europe > a > few years back, as set out in 'How should we respond to early map thefts?' > < > http://www.maphistory.info/response.html >. If you are seriously > interested > in these issues, please look at that. I will not repeat its points here. > > Bibliographical Aspects > ------------------------ > Where the earlier thefts mostly concerned maps removed from atlases, we > now > seem to be dealing with single maps removed from early printed books. The > practical implications of this are significant. Whereas atlases are > usually > curated by map specialists (or at least their value and vulnerability are > well understood), the map as text illustration will usually (and > understandably) be found in a rare book collection. While the map > specialists (curators, collectors, dealers) will tend to know of the > existence and value of such maps, is the same true of the rare books > curator? In how many of those public collections that are likely to hold > such works is their special vulnerability understood? Steal one page from > a > first folio Shakespeare and you have nothing of value; slip into your > jacket > pocket a single sheet from a book with an early map of North America on it > and you may have a readily saleable, broadly untraceable, artefact worth > up > to six figures in dollars. > > The obvious conclusion is that institutions need to identify what are, in > terms of theft, possibly the *most vulnerable* items in their entire > collections, and then ensure that they are consulted only under the > strictest possible invigilation. Ideally, that would include CCTV, which > has once again proved its worth. > > But how are these maps, and the books that should still contain them, to > be > identified? Again the answer is surely obvious: close cooperation between > the map specialists and the rare books curators. For political reasons, > this may not have happened in the past. It must surely be initiated now. > We > can be sure that the potential thief will have done their homework, even > if > the library hasn't. > > The (continuing) flood of newspaper articles has identified a few of the > books/maps involved (see < http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html#lit >>). But those are presumably just the tip of the iceberg. We are told > that other libraries are checking their holdings. But what list are they > using to do this? Does it just include the titles already mentioned? I > sincerely hope it is more rigorous than that. > > It is of course very possible that there have been developments behind the > scenes. But has anybody compiled the kind of list a conscientious thief > might have prepared of early maps of North America, by working through > bibliographies, dealers' lists (particuarly, perhaps, Forbes Smiley's), > etc.? By his own admission, Smiley has been dealing for 25 years. If > the > allegations against him are found to be true, for how long might he have > been pillaging libraries? And what might be the full range of material he > could have targetted? > > Information-sharing (post-theft) > ------------------------------- > The main problem identified during the discussions three years ago was the > lack of information-sharing between different groups (curators, > dealers/auctions, law enforcement agencies). This was because of > separatge > (and often fragmented) networks that, in addition, were rarely as > international as the trade in early maps. > > If a list has been compiled of all the books/maps known to have been > involved this time (or even, ideally, a list of all those titles that are > potentially relevant), how has this been circulated? Clearly, handing it > to > a potential thief should be avoided but is there yet any secure mechanism > that can distribute such a list (assuming it exists) to all the libraries > *throughout the world* that might be expected to hold early North American > maps bound into books? And, for that purpose, would OCLC, RLIN, NUC, > ESTC, > etc. provide an adequate inventory of the relevant libraries? > > The British Library has discovered losses among the material Smiley > consulted. What about the other major collections around Europe? > > Forbes Smiley is a map dealer and there are some curators who are > suspicious > of dealers in general. This is unjustified and counter-productive. The > trade has its own organisations with codes of practice that allow it to > police its members. It is significant that Smiley is reported as not > being > a member of such an organisation. Curators should also remember that, > sadly, some of their members have been guilty of a betrayal of trust in > the > past. To avoid being the accidental conduit for stolen maps, dealers must > know what has been taken, and in as much 'copy-specific' detail as > possible > if they are to help catch thieves. The need for libraries to disclose > what > they have lost, in full and as speedily as possible, was urged in < > http://www.maphistory.info/response.html >. That policy, which is in line > with recommendations from rare books organisations, seems now to be > generally accepted, even if there has been no move to create the proposed > central, web-based register of stolen maps. > > Forensic identification > ---------------------- > It has been rightly stated that it is very difficult to prove that a > particular map came originally from a particular volume, unless there was > a > library stamp (which remains visible). In the case of an atlas map, it > can > often be shown to fit back exactly into its parent volume. The maps > involved in this case, however, are likely to have been folded into the > volume and to have a different overall size. > > However, the map may have left a 'footprint', particularly if it was > folded > several times - an indentation like a platemark, showing its original > size. > Even if the folds have subsequently been pressed out, they can usually be > seen and measured, allowing the original size in the volume to be > calculated > precisely. There may perhaps be offsetting of the neighbouring text on > the > verso of the map, or matching worm-holes. All of which makes it important > to attempt to match any suspect map with a vandalised volume. > > Given that these issues have wide relevance I would be grateful if this > message might be copied to other interested lists. Thank you. > > Tony Campbell > ****************************************** > t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > > 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' > http://www.maphistory.info/ > > [part of the WWW-Virtual Library] > ****************************************** > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > -- Barry Ruderman 1298 Prospect, Suite 2C La Jolla, CA 92037 (858) 551-8500 (858) 551-8593 (fax) blr@raremaps.com www.raremaps.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Jens Bornholt" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:11:53 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.053 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.273, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=0.438, RCVD_IN_SORBS_HTTP=0.043, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SOCKS=0.338] X-Spam-Level: The more I think of this, the sadder it makes me to imagine the difficulty future and present researchers will have in accessing important and not-so-important public and private vmap collections. Is there a way a sort of internationally accepted ID-Card could be handed to persons who are KNOWN to be honourable in order to facilitate their access to Museums, Libraries etc? The card I envision should be handed out by an internationally accepted organization, perhaps such as the International Map Collectors Society IMCoS, renewable yearly. Or shall all doors be closed to everybody from here onwards? Jens P.Bornholt/Guatemala ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Kovarsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft > This today in the = Boston Globe:=20 > > <3D.htm>http://www.boston.com:80/news/local/articles/2005/08/09/dealer_faces_probe_in_map_thefts > > The reporter authoring this piece indicated that Arader was going to > initiate the formation a group of mapsellers with a code of ethics, in > part as a response to this incident. Given the circumstances, I sent the > following note to that reporter: > > I was reading your map theft article today. Re: Arader's comments about > forming > an organization that has a code of ethics for map dealers, it already > exists. See > www.antiquemapdealers.com (International Antiquarian Mapsellers > Association), founded > in 2002. Our members are appalled by what has happened, as it sets > everyone concerned > on edge. We can only assert that these thefts do not represent a common > occurrence, > and most dealers soundly condemn such actions, and would favor any > reasonable approach > to security to avoid such problems. The whole issue re: map thefts has > been summarized > online at: . > > Regards. Joel Kovarsky > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft From: To: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.7) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.592 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007] X-Spam-Level: Jens, I think it may come down to only viewing electronic duplicates in the general reading rooms! Originals will only be viewed on a limited basis, and then only with someone standing next to you; both of you wearing white gloves! Don McGuirk > The more I think of this, the sadder it makes me to imagine the difficulty future > and present researchers will have in accessing important and not-so-important > public and private vmap collections. > Is there a way a sort of internationally accepted ID-Card could be handed to > persons who are KNOWN to be honourable in order to facilitate their access to > Museums, Libraries etc? > The card I envision should be handed out by an internationally accepted > organization, perhaps such as the International Map Collectors Society IMCoS, > renewable yearly. > Or shall all doors be closed to everybody from here onwards? > Jens P.Bornholt/Guatemala > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joel Kovarsky" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 9:54 AM > Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft > > >> This today in the = Boston Globe:=20 >> >> <3D.htm>http://www.boston.com:80/news/local/articles/2005/08/09/dealer_faces_probe_in_map_thefts >> >> The reporter authoring this piece indicated that Arader was going to initiate >> the formation a group of mapsellers with a code of ethics, in part as a >> response to this incident. Given the circumstances, I sent the following note >> to that reporter: >> >> I was reading your map theft article today. Re: Arader's comments about forming >> an organization that has a code of ethics for map dealers, it already exists. >> See >> www.antiquemapdealers.com (International Antiquarian Mapsellers Association), >> founded >> in 2002. Our members are appalled by what has happened, as it sets everyone >> concerned >> on edge. We can only assert that these thefts do not represent a common >> occurrence, >> and most dealers soundly condemn such actions, and would favor any reasonable >> approach >> to security to avoid such problems. The whole issue re: map thefts has been >> summarized >> online at: . >> >> Regards. Joel Kovarsky >> _______________________________________________________________ >> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >> hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author >> and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The >> University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the >> author. >> List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and > do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of > Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:31:05 -0400 From: Joel Kovarsky User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: I think it may come down to only viewing electronic duplicates in the general >reading rooms! Originals will only be viewed on a limited basis, and then only >with someone standing next to you; both of you wearing white gloves! > >Don McGuirk > I would not be so pessimistic. The sky isn't falling, and theft on any scale is quite old, with thieves using the technology and resources of the times (admittedly, this one was relatively low tech). One reason for something of an international 'woe is me' is that we hear about everything more rapidly and repetitively. I suspect some sort of collaboration of interested and involved parties could begin to improve the situation, and develop a framework for a standardized approach (without worrying about the theoretical elements of ethics...sorry Barry). Needs for researcher access can be discussed and incorporated, with the understanding, as already noted, that nothing will be perfect, but would be better. These institutions have the capability of acting, and likely will, when pushed. (I don't think an organization like IMCOS is capable, or would relish the idea, of issuing security vouchers.) Joel Kovarsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:46:20 -0400 From: John Woram Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.697 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.156, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_SOFTFAIL=3.14] X-Spam-Level: >>I don't think an organization like IMCOS is capable, or would relish the idea, of issuing security vouchers. And even if they did, our friend Smiley probably would have had whatever voucher had been issued. Until fairly recently, he was a respected member of the inner circle, a benefactor of at least one library, and so on. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:08:14 -0800 From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.486 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.114, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level: I am wondering why Mr. Smiley was allowed to take his briefcase into the library. The best way of stopping institutional thefts, IMHO, is for the thefts to be reported on lists such as this as soon as detected. It is quite understandable that libraries don't want to be thought careless, but airing this would alert dealers. In spite of this case, the vast, vast majority of dealers do not want to deal in stolen goods and would be happy to contact the library or police. A quick check of venues such as E-bay is also a good idea. Am still impressed with the speed with which the Scandinavian thief was caught a few years ago. Also, as libraries know, the vast, vast majority of researchers are totally honest. Denying access would be an abrogation of the role of libraries in increasing knowledge; a main purpose. I can't see that identity cards would serve any real purpose. An experienced dealer like Smiley would surely be among the first to apply. Yes, thefts occur, but they are still rare enough that they make the world news. Dee On Aug 11, 2005, at 4:07 PM, mcguirk1492@pol.net wrote: > Jens, > > I think it may come down to only viewing electronic duplicates > in the general > reading rooms! Originals will only be viewed on a limited basis, > and then only > with someone standing next to you; both of you wearing white gloves! > > Don McGuirk > > >> The more I think of this, the sadder it makes me to imagine the >> difficulty future >> and present researchers will have in accessing important and not- >> so-important >> public and private vmap collections. >> Is there a way a sort of internationally accepted ID-Card could >> be handed to >> persons who are KNOWN to be honourable in order to facilitate >> their access to >> Museums, Libraries etc? >> The card I envision should be handed out by an internationally >> accepted >> organization, perhaps such as the International Map Collectors >> Society IMCoS, >> renewable yearly. >> Or shall all doors be closed to everybody from here onwards? >> Jens P.Bornholt/Guatemala >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joel Kovarsky" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 9:54 AM >> Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft >> >> >> >>> This today in the = Boston Globe:=20 >>> >>> <3D.htm>http://www.boston.com:80/news/local/articles/2005/08/09/ >>> dealer_faces_probe_in_map_thefts >>> >>> The reporter authoring this piece indicated that Arader was going >>> to initiate >>> the formation a group of mapsellers with a code of ethics, in >>> part as a >>> response to this incident. Given the circumstances, I sent the >>> following note >>> to that reporter: >>> >>> I was reading your map theft article today. Re: Arader's comments >>> about forming >>> an organization that has a code of ethics for map dealers, it >>> already exists. >>> See >>> www.antiquemapdealers.com (International Antiquarian Mapsellers >>> Association), >>> founded >>> in 2002. Our members are appalled by what has happened, as it >>> sets everyone >>> concerned >>> on edge. We can only assert that these thefts do not represent a >>> common >>> occurrence, >>> and most dealers soundly condemn such actions, and would favor >>> any reasonable >>> approach >>> to security to avoid such problems. The whole issue re: map >>> thefts has been >>> summarized >>> online at: . >>> >>> Regards. Joel Kovarsky >>> _______________________________________________________________ >>> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >>> hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >>> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those >>> of the author >>> and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >>> Utrecht. The >>> University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the >>> views of the >>> author. >>> List Information: http://www.maphist.info >>> >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >> hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >> the author and >> do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The >> University of >> Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. >> List Information: http://www.maphist.info >> > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA www.observatorybooks.com deelong@alaska.com 907/586-9676 200 North Franklin Street Juneau, Alaska, 99801 Since 1977 The bridge of life is sometimes found in the rainbow _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:06:05 -0400 From: Joel Bresler Subject: Re: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.791 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.809, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level: Dear friends: I thought it might be useful to alert the list to a new authentication technology that looks at microscopic imperfections in paper and uses these as a unique "signature" to identify documents. The system is non-destructive and does not require any marking on the original document. See details at http://www.imperial.ac.uk/P6720.htm and many other places on the web. Perhaps in the future, particularly as items are being either cataloged or digitized, their "signature" could be captured as a safeguard against future theft. If a thief knew that the important items in a given collection had been secured, perhaps s/he would look elsewhere for easier pickings. Best, Joel Bresler At 06:17 PM 8/11/2005, Tony Campbell wrote: >Forensic identification >---------------------- >It has been rightly stated that it is very difficult to prove that a >particular map came originally from a particular volume, unless there was a >library stamp (which remains visible). In the case of an atlas map, it can >often be shown to fit back exactly into its parent volume. The maps >involved in this case, however, are likely to have been folded into the >volume and to have a different overall size. > >However, the map may have left a 'footprint', particularly if it was folded >several times - an indentation like a platemark, showing its original size. >Even if the folds have subsequently been pressed out, they can usually be >seen and measured, allowing the original size in the volume to be calculated >precisely. There may perhaps be offsetting of the neighbouring text on the >verso of the map, or matching worm-holes. All of which makes it important >to attempt to match any suspect map with a vandalised volume. > >Given that these issues have wide relevance I would be grateful if this >message might be copied to other interested lists. Thank you. > >Tony Campbell >****************************************** >t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > >'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' >http://www.maphistory.info/ Joel Bresler 250 E. Emerson Rd. Lexington, MA 02420 USA 781-862-4104 (Telephone & FAX) joel.br@verizon.net back-up email: joelbresler-at-gmail.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:53:02 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.193 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.406, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Non-member submission from [Joel Kovarsky ] Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:38:57 -0400 I would not be so pessimistic. The sky isn't falling, and theft on any scale is quite old, with thieves using the technology and resources of the times (admittedly, this one was relatively low tech). One reason for something of an international 'woe is me' is that we hear about everything more rapidly and repetitively. I suspect some sort of collaboration of interested and involved parties could begin to improve the situation, and develop a framework for a standardized approach (without worrying about the theoretical elements of ethics...sorry Barry). Needs for researcher access can be discussed and incorporated, with the understanding, as already noted, that nothing will be perfect, but would be better. These institutions have the capability of acting, and likely will, when pushed. (I don't think an organization like IMCOS is capable, or would relish the idea, of issuing security vouchers.) Joel Kovarsky >Jens, > > I think it may come down to only viewing electronic duplicates in the general >reading rooms! Originals will only be viewed on a limited basis, and then only >with someone standing next to you; both of you wearing white gloves! > >Don McGuirk > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Howard Golden" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:24:42 +0200 Organization: Terra Partners X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.595 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: I am researching Holy Land maps to create a carto-bibliography and intend to spend some time at the British Museum and in the Netherlands doing research. This situation concerns me a great deal since I assume it will create roadblocks and make research more time consuming. To fly anywhere today is a chore, having armed guards in the entrances to the metro and being required to wait while a receptionist calls upstairs to confirm you have an appointment with someone before you can enter a large office building today makes urban life unpleasant. Map collecting and librarianship has always been an area imbedded with a great deal of trust and a throwback to the "good old days" where people could deal one on one in normal intercourse. It especially strikes to the heart of the people on this list since we would think that anyone subscribing and participating here would, of course, be honest and trustworthy. I only had one incident of theft or attempted theft dealing with a map dealer in 25 years. In view of Barry's comment I will share that information with the list. His name is Dwayne Shealey of Antiquarian Collection in the US who first claimed that the 1611 Bible I bought had been stolen, then gave me a run around about how the police were recovering it, and finally reported it recovered and then sent me a facsimile by "error". In this way he had my money for almost a year and only due to my having been a prosecutor and a lawyer was I able to push the right buttons to get my money back. However my point about Barry's observation is that I doubt that people would be inclined to report suspicions to this list in view of the very real threat of Libel and Slander suits. I understand that truth may not be an absolute defense to a libel suit in England, is that true? In the US an employee can look at the recommendation letter sent to an inquiring new employer so reference letters now only contain dates of employment and confirmation he/she was an employee due to the fear of saying the wrong thing. I have no answer to the issue, I only know that I would be concerned both as an individual and as an attorney advising a client, about reporting suspicions to a list, or going to the authorities. It would have to be a STRONG suspicion. Long time non payment does not translate to being a thief, it may only indicate poor financial management, or three kids in college and high expenses. Think of the harm done to a person's reputation if a highly respected person like Tony Campbell or Frances Herbert or Alice Hudson would send forth a "suspicion" about a person. One can never retract a "suspicion". It is like throwing seeds to the wind, and then changing your mind and trying to recover the seeds a few months later. Some have already taken hold and began growing and you can never recover all of them. I agree with Barry about the need to discuss this issue, and I too have no easy solution. A "secret" list sent to libraries under seal begins a reign of terror and Star Chamber type proceedings. An open discussion allows for a truly unscrupulous person to counter-attach with a lawsuit thereby silencing others, while an innocent person has little chance of defending himself. I believe that no one here would report suspicions without a very strong basis, however in this business one's name is one's wealth. There seems to be a simple solution when dealing with a book worth tens of thousands of dollars. It seems to me that it should not be a burden for the librarian who receives the book back to ask the person to wait while a simple check of the contents occurs. Would this take more than 60 to 90 seconds? I ask the librarians here if this seems to be such a burden. If everyone who checks out a very rare book, which has to be handed back in person anyway, knew that it would be checked on return, who would cut out a map? Also in view of the current safeguards about access to rare books, gross thieves and beginners probably have less opportunity to access the rarest books, so obvious thieves may not be the issue. It is those who have the knowledge and ability to select and then re-sell the rare maps that pose the highest danger, and yet those are the most trusted, and therefore offend us all the very most by their breach - in addition to the real loss of the map to the community. Joel is right about the sky not falling, this is not an everyday occurrence and I think our sense of pride and outrage at being betrayed by one of our own makes this such a hot button here. Howard Golden -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Barry Ruderman Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:55 AM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair Tony, Let me raise one issue that I believe has frustrated at least several dealers. At least one dealer and several institutions have stated to the media that Forbes Smiley has been suspected (and/or actively under investigation) for some time as a potential map thief. Unfortunately, this information was not shared with other institutions and the trade. Had anyone warned the institutions who were providing access to their collections and the dealers and collectors who were purchasing from Mr. Smiley that there was a serious concern, these innocent parties would have been on notice and better able to participate in the solution, perhaps at a much earlier point in time. Certainly, among members of the several trade organizations which are active in books and maps, there must be serious consideration given to the ethical ramifications of being aware of suspicious persons/activities, but not reporting them within the organization. A good argument can be made that by remaining silent, you contribute to the proliferation. Given that Mr. Smiley was a long standing (if oft discredited) part of the rare map trade (he had a well known reputation for failing to pay sellers for extended periods of time long before the current fiasco), it may have been more difficult to determine just how to respond to the suspicions, but at that point, caveat emptor/curator. The failure to disseminate the information has created a larger web of victims--collectors, dealers and institutions. There is no ready solution (and, as an amateur ethicist, I would opine that there is no right answer), but the issue certainly merits discussion and perhaps a more uniform set of expectations among institutions and the trade. Barry Ruderman > Colleagues, > > I wonder if this is the time to raise some of the broader issues that > relate to the allegations surrounding Forbes Smiley. Much of the > argument below takes forward the thoughts prompted by the > Bellwood/Perry thefts in Europe a > few years back, as set out in 'How should we respond to early map thefts?' > < > http://www.maphistory.info/response.html >. If you are seriously > interested > in these issues, please look at that. I will not repeat its points here. > > Bibliographical Aspects > ------------------------ > Where the earlier thefts mostly concerned maps removed from atlases, > we now seem to be dealing with single maps removed from early printed > books. The practical implications of this are significant. Whereas > atlases are usually > curated by map specialists (or at least their value and vulnerability are > well understood), the map as text illustration will usually (and > understandably) be found in a rare book collection. While the map > specialists (curators, collectors, dealers) will tend to know of the > existence and value of such maps, is the same true of the rare books > curator? In how many of those public collections that are likely to hold > such works is their special vulnerability understood? Steal one page from > a > first folio Shakespeare and you have nothing of value; slip into your > jacket > pocket a single sheet from a book with an early map of North America on it > and you may have a readily saleable, broadly untraceable, artefact worth > up > to six figures in dollars. > > The obvious conclusion is that institutions need to identify what are, > in terms of theft, possibly the *most vulnerable* items in their > entire collections, and then ensure that they are consulted only under > the strictest possible invigilation. Ideally, that would include > CCTV, which has once again proved its worth. > > But how are these maps, and the books that should still contain them, > to be identified? Again the answer is surely obvious: close > cooperation between the map specialists and the rare books curators. > For political reasons, this may not have happened in the past. It > must surely be initiated now. We > can be sure that the potential thief will have done their homework, even > if > the library hasn't. > > The (continuing) flood of newspaper articles has identified a few of > the books/maps involved (see < > http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html#lit >>). But those are presumably just the tip of the iceberg. We are told > that other libraries are checking their holdings. But what list are > they using to do this? Does it just include the titles already > mentioned? I sincerely hope it is more rigorous than that. > > It is of course very possible that there have been developments behind > the scenes. But has anybody compiled the kind of list a conscientious > thief might have prepared of early maps of North America, by working > through bibliographies, dealers' lists (particuarly, perhaps, Forbes Smiley's), > etc.? By his own admission, Smiley has been dealing for 25 years. If > the > allegations against him are found to be true, for how long might he > have been pillaging libraries? And what might be the full range of > material he could have targetted? > > Information-sharing (post-theft) > ------------------------------- > The main problem identified during the discussions three years ago was > the lack of information-sharing between different groups (curators, > dealers/auctions, law enforcement agencies). This was because of > separatge (and often fragmented) networks that, in addition, were > rarely as international as the trade in early maps. > > If a list has been compiled of all the books/maps known to have been > involved this time (or even, ideally, a list of all those titles that > are potentially relevant), how has this been circulated? Clearly, > handing it to a potential thief should be avoided but is there yet any > secure mechanism that can distribute such a list (assuming it exists) > to all the libraries *throughout the world* that might be expected to > hold early North American maps bound into books? And, for that > purpose, would OCLC, RLIN, NUC, ESTC, > etc. provide an adequate inventory of the relevant libraries? > > The British Library has discovered losses among the material Smiley > consulted. What about the other major collections around Europe? > > Forbes Smiley is a map dealer and there are some curators who are > suspicious of dealers in general. This is unjustified and > counter-productive. The trade has its own organisations with codes of > practice that allow it to police its members. It is significant that > Smiley is reported as not being > a member of such an organisation. Curators should also remember that, > sadly, some of their members have been guilty of a betrayal of trust in > the > past. To avoid being the accidental conduit for stolen maps, dealers must > know what has been taken, and in as much 'copy-specific' detail as > possible > if they are to help catch thieves. The need for libraries to disclose > what > they have lost, in full and as speedily as possible, was urged in < > http://www.maphistory.info/response.html >. That policy, which is in line > with recommendations from rare books organisations, seems now to be > generally accepted, even if there has been no move to create the proposed > central, web-based register of stolen maps. > > Forensic identification > ---------------------- > It has been rightly stated that it is very difficult to prove that a > particular map came originally from a particular volume, unless there > was a library stamp (which remains visible). In the case of an atlas > map, it can > often be shown to fit back exactly into its parent volume. The maps > involved in this case, however, are likely to have been folded into the > volume and to have a different overall size. > > However, the map may have left a 'footprint', particularly if it was > folded several times - an indentation like a platemark, showing its > original size. > Even if the folds have subsequently been pressed out, they can usually be > seen and measured, allowing the original size in the volume to be > calculated > precisely. There may perhaps be offsetting of the neighbouring text on > the > verso of the map, or matching worm-holes. All of which makes it important > to attempt to match any suspect map with a vandalised volume. > > Given that these issues have wide relevance I would be grateful if > this message might be copied to other interested lists. Thank you. > > Tony Campbell > ****************************************** > t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > > 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' > http://www.maphistory.info/ > > [part of the WWW-Virtual Library] > ****************************************** > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: > 10/08/2005 > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted > by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements > and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do > not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The > University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views > of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info > -- Barry Ruderman 1298 Prospect, Suite 2C La Jolla, CA 92037 (858) 551-8500 (858) 551-8593 (fax) blr@raremaps.com www.raremaps.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Andropov" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:59:26 +0200 Organization: Andropov X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcWfH68TzMacd7ZqTs6G3Sx8WHB3JQAAtBsw X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: In reaction to : There seems to be a simple solution when dealing with a book worth tens of thousands of dollars. It seems to me that it should not be a burden for the librarian who receives the book back to ask the person to wait while a simple check of the contents occurs. Would this take more than 60 to 90 seconds? I ask the librarians here if this seems to be such a burden. If everyone who checks out a very rare book, which has to be handed back in person anyway, knew that it would be checked on return, who would cut out a map? Would an highly accurate weighing scale be a solution ? Before handed over the rare book is weighed to the gram and registered. When returned the same procedure is followed. Removal or 'replacement' of pages should be detectable. Boudewijn Meijer -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] Namens Howard Golden Verzonden: vrijdag 12 augustus 2005 11:25 Aan: maphist@geog.uu.nl Onderwerp: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair I am researching Holy Land maps to create a carto-bibliography and intend to spend some time at the British Museum and in the Netherlands doing research. This situation concerns me a great deal since I assume it will create roadblocks and make research more time consuming. To fly anywhere today is a chore, having armed guards in the entrances to the metro and being required to wait while a receptionist calls upstairs to confirm you have an appointment with someone before you can enter a large office building today makes urban life unpleasant. Map collecting and librarianship has always been an area imbedded with a great deal of trust and a throwback to the "good old days" where people could deal one on one in normal intercourse. It especially strikes to the heart of the people on this list since we would think that anyone subscribing and participating here would, of course, be honest and trustworthy. I only had one incident of theft or attempted theft dealing with a map dealer in 25 years. In view of Barry's comment I will share that information with the list. His name is Dwayne Shealey of Antiquarian Collection in the US who first claimed that the 1611 Bible I bought had been stolen, then gave me a run around about how the police were recovering it, and finally reported it recovered and then sent me a facsimile by "error". In this way he had my money for almost a year and only due to my having been a prosecutor and a lawyer was I able to push the right buttons to get my money back. However my point about Barry's observation is that I doubt that people would be inclined to report suspicions to this list in view of the very real threat of Libel and Slander suits. I understand that truth may not be an absolute defense to a libel suit in England, is that true? In the US an employee can look at the recommendation letter sent to an inquiring new employer so reference letters now only contain dates of employment and confirmation he/she was an employee due to the fear of saying the wrong thing. I have no answer to the issue, I only know that I would be concerned both as an individual and as an attorney advising a client, about reporting suspicions to a list, or going to the authorities. It would have to be a STRONG suspicion. Long time non payment does not translate to being a thief, it may only indicate poor financial management, or three kids in college and high expenses. Think of the harm done to a person's reputation if a highly respected person like Tony Campbell or Frances Herbert or Alice Hudson would send forth a "suspicion" about a person. One can never retract a "suspicion". It is like throwing seeds to the wind, and then changing your mind and trying to recover the seeds a few months later. Some have already taken hold and began growing and you can never recover all of them. I agree with Barry about the need to discuss this issue, and I too have no easy solution. A "secret" list sent to libraries under seal begins a reign of terror and Star Chamber type proceedings. An open discussion allows for a truly unscrupulous person to counter-attach with a lawsuit thereby silencing others, while an innocent person has little chance of defending himself. I believe that no one here would report suspicions without a very strong basis, however in this business one's name is one's wealth. There seems to be a simple solution when dealing with a book worth tens of thousands of dollars. It seems to me that it should not be a burden for the librarian who receives the book back to ask the person to wait while a simple check of the contents occurs. Would this take more than 60 to 90 seconds? I ask the librarians here if this seems to be such a burden. If everyone who checks out a very rare book, which has to be handed back in person anyway, knew that it would be checked on return, who would cut out a map? Also in view of the current safeguards about access to rare books, gross thieves and beginners probably have less opportunity to access the rarest books, so obvious thieves may not be the issue. It is those who have the knowledge and ability to select and then re-sell the rare maps that pose the highest danger, and yet those are the most trusted, and therefore offend us all the very most by their breach - in addition to the real loss of the map to the community. Joel is right about the sky not falling, this is not an everyday occurrence and I think our sense of pride and outrage at being betrayed by one of our own makes this such a hot button here. Howard Golden -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Barry Ruderman Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:55 AM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair Tony, Let me raise one issue that I believe has frustrated at least several dealers. At least one dealer and several institutions have stated to the media that Forbes Smiley has been suspected (and/or actively under investigation) for some time as a potential map thief. Unfortunately, this information was not shared with other institutions and the trade. Had anyone warned the institutions who were providing access to their collections and the dealers and collectors who were purchasing from Mr. Smiley that there was a serious concern, these innocent parties would have been on notice and better able to participate in the solution, perhaps at a much earlier point in time. Certainly, among members of the several trade organizations which are active in books and maps, there must be serious consideration given to the ethical ramifications of being aware of suspicious persons/activities, but not reporting them within the organization. A good argument can be made that by remaining silent, you contribute to the proliferation. Given that Mr. Smiley was a long standing (if oft discredited) part of the rare map trade (he had a well known reputation for failing to pay sellers for extended periods of time long before the current fiasco), it may have been more difficult to determine just how to respond to the suspicions, but at that point, caveat emptor/curator. The failure to disseminate the information has created a larger web of victims--collectors, dealers and institutions. There is no ready solution (and, as an amateur ethicist, I would opine that there is no right answer), but the issue certainly merits discussion and perhaps a more uniform set of expectations among institutions and the trade. Barry Ruderman > Colleagues, > > I wonder if this is the time to raise some of the broader issues that > relate to the allegations surrounding Forbes Smiley. Much of the > argument below takes forward the thoughts prompted by the > Bellwood/Perry thefts in Europe a > few years back, as set out in 'How should we respond to early map thefts?' > < > http://www.maphistory.info/response.html >. If you are seriously > interested > in these issues, please look at that. I will not repeat its points here. > > Bibliographical Aspects > ------------------------ > Where the earlier thefts mostly concerned maps removed from atlases, > we now seem to be dealing with single maps removed from early printed > books. The practical implications of this are significant. Whereas > atlases are usually > curated by map specialists (or at least their value and vulnerability are > well understood), the map as text illustration will usually (and > understandably) be found in a rare book collection. While the map > specialists (curators, collectors, dealers) will tend to know of the > existence and value of such maps, is the same true of the rare books > curator? In how many of those public collections that are likely to hold > such works is their special vulnerability understood? Steal one page from > a > first folio Shakespeare and you have nothing of value; slip into your > jacket > pocket a single sheet from a book with an early map of North America on it > and you may have a readily saleable, broadly untraceable, artefact worth > up > to six figures in dollars. > > The obvious conclusion is that institutions need to identify what are, > in terms of theft, possibly the *most vulnerable* items in their > entire collections, and then ensure that they are consulted only under > the strictest possible invigilation. Ideally, that would include > CCTV, which has once again proved its worth. > > But how are these maps, and the books that should still contain them, > to be identified? Again the answer is surely obvious: close > cooperation between the map specialists and the rare books curators. > For political reasons, this may not have happened in the past. It > must surely be initiated now. We > can be sure that the potential thief will have done their homework, even > if > the library hasn't. > > The (continuing) flood of newspaper articles has identified a few of > the books/maps involved (see < > http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html#lit >>). But those are presumably just the tip of the iceberg. We are told > that other libraries are checking their holdings. But what list are > they using to do this? Does it just include the titles already > mentioned? I sincerely hope it is more rigorous than that. > > It is of course very possible that there have been developments behind > the scenes. But has anybody compiled the kind of list a conscientious > thief might have prepared of early maps of North America, by working > through bibliographies, dealers' lists (particuarly, perhaps, Forbes Smiley's), > etc.? By his own admission, Smiley has been dealing for 25 years. If > the > allegations against him are found to be true, for how long might he > have been pillaging libraries? And what might be the full range of > material he could have targetted? > > Information-sharing (post-theft) > ------------------------------- > The main problem identified during the discussions three years ago was > the lack of information-sharing between different groups (curators, > dealers/auctions, law enforcement agencies). This was because of > separatge (and often fragmented) networks that, in addition, were > rarely as international as the trade in early maps. > > If a list has been compiled of all the books/maps known to have been > involved this time (or even, ideally, a list of all those titles that > are potentially relevant), how has this been circulated? Clearly, > handing it to a potential thief should be avoided but is there yet any > secure mechanism that can distribute such a list (assuming it exists) > to all the libraries *throughout the world* that might be expected to > hold early North American maps bound into books? And, for that > purpose, would OCLC, RLIN, NUC, ESTC, > etc. provide an adequate inventory of the relevant libraries? > > The British Library has discovered losses among the material Smiley > consulted. What about the other major collections around Europe? > > Forbes Smiley is a map dealer and there are some curators who are > suspicious of dealers in general. This is unjustified and > counter-productive. The trade has its own organisations with codes of > practice that allow it to police its members. It is significant that > Smiley is reported as not being > a member of such an organisation. Curators should also remember that, > sadly, some of their members have been guilty of a betrayal of trust in > the > past. To avoid being the accidental conduit for stolen maps, dealers must > know what has been taken, and in as much 'copy-specific' detail as > possible > if they are to help catch thieves. The need for libraries to disclose > what > they have lost, in full and as speedily as possible, was urged in < > http://www.maphistory.info/response.html >. That policy, which is in line > with recommendations from rare books organisations, seems now to be > generally accepted, even if there has been no move to create the proposed > central, web-based register of stolen maps. > > Forensic identification > ---------------------- > It has been rightly stated that it is very difficult to prove that a > particular map came originally from a particular volume, unless there > was a library stamp (which remains visible). In the case of an atlas > map, it can > often be shown to fit back exactly into its parent volume. The maps > involved in this case, however, are likely to have been folded into the > volume and to have a different overall size. > > However, the map may have left a 'footprint', particularly if it was > folded several times - an indentation like a platemark, showing its > original size. > Even if the folds have subsequently been pressed out, they can usually be > seen and measured, allowing the original size in the volume to be > calculated > precisely. There may perhaps be offsetting of the neighbouring text on > the > verso of the map, or matching worm-holes. All of which makes it important > to attempt to match any suspect map with a vandalised volume. > > Given that these issues have wide relevance I would be grateful if > this message might be copied to other interested lists. Thank you. > > Tony Campbell > ****************************************** > t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > > 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' > http://www.maphistory.info/ > > [part of the WWW-Virtual Library] > ****************************************** > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: > 10/08/2005 > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted > by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements > and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do > not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The > University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views > of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info > -- Barry Ruderman 1298 Prospect, Suite 2C La Jolla, CA 92037 (858) 551-8500 (858) 551-8593 (fax) blr@raremaps.com www.raremaps.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Howard Golden" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:05:37 +0200 Organization: Terra Partners X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.596 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: nice try, but 1. This requires purchase of sophisticated scales 2. The thief could replace the stolen map with paper weighing the same 3. it is too anonymous. I think a thief should be confronted and my idea is that knowing that a physical check will occur may act as a deterrent. Howard Golden -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Andropov Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:59 AM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair In reaction to : There seems to be a simple solution when dealing with a book worth tens of thousands of dollars. It seems to me that it should not be a burden for the librarian who receives the book back to ask the person to wait while a simple check of the contents occurs. Would this take more than 60 to 90 seconds? I ask the librarians here if this seems to be such a burden. If everyone who checks out a very rare book, which has to be handed back in person anyway, knew that it would be checked on return, who would cut out a map? Would an highly accurate weighing scale be a solution ? Before handed over the rare book is weighed to the gram and registered. When returned the same procedure is followed. Removal or 'replacement' of pages should be detectable. Boudewijn Meijer -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] Namens Howard Golden Verzonden: vrijdag 12 augustus 2005 11:25 Aan: maphist@geog.uu.nl Onderwerp: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair I am researching Holy Land maps to create a carto-bibliography and intend to spend some time at the British Museum and in the Netherlands doing research. This situation concerns me a great deal since I assume it will create roadblocks and make research more time consuming. To fly anywhere today is a chore, having armed guards in the entrances to the metro and being required to wait while a receptionist calls upstairs to confirm you have an appointment with someone before you can enter a large office building today makes urban life unpleasant. Map collecting and librarianship has always been an area imbedded with a great deal of trust and a throwback to the "good old days" where people could deal one on one in normal intercourse. It especially strikes to the heart of the people on this list since we would think that anyone subscribing and participating here would, of course, be honest and trustworthy. I only had one incident of theft or attempted theft dealing with a map dealer in 25 years. In view of Barry's comment I will share that information with the list. His name is Dwayne Shealey of Antiquarian Collection in the US who first claimed that the 1611 Bible I bought had been stolen, then gave me a run around about how the police were recovering it, and finally reported it recovered and then sent me a facsimile by "error". In this way he had my money for almost a year and only due to my having been a prosecutor and a lawyer was I able to push the right buttons to get my money back. However my point about Barry's observation is that I doubt that people would be inclined to report suspicions to this list in view of the very real threat of Libel and Slander suits. I understand that truth may not be an absolute defense to a libel suit in England, is that true? In the US an employee can look at the recommendation letter sent to an inquiring new employer so reference letters now only contain dates of employment and confirmation he/she was an employee due to the fear of saying the wrong thing. I have no answer to the issue, I only know that I would be concerned both as an individual and as an attorney advising a client, about reporting suspicions to a list, or going to the authorities. It would have to be a STRONG suspicion. Long time non payment does not translate to being a thief, it may only indicate poor financial management, or three kids in college and high expenses. Think of the harm done to a person's reputation if a highly respected person like Tony Campbell or Frances Herbert or Alice Hudson would send forth a "suspicion" about a person. One can never retract a "suspicion". It is like throwing seeds to the wind, and then changing your mind and trying to recover the seeds a few months later. Some have already taken hold and began growing and you can never recover all of them. I agree with Barry about the need to discuss this issue, and I too have no easy solution. A "secret" list sent to libraries under seal begins a reign of terror and Star Chamber type proceedings. An open discussion allows for a truly unscrupulous person to counter-attach with a lawsuit thereby silencing others, while an innocent person has little chance of defending himself. I believe that no one here would report suspicions without a very strong basis, however in this business one's name is one's wealth. There seems to be a simple solution when dealing with a book worth tens of thousands of dollars. It seems to me that it should not be a burden for the librarian who receives the book back to ask the person to wait while a simple check of the contents occurs. Would this take more than 60 to 90 seconds? I ask the librarians here if this seems to be such a burden. If everyone who checks out a very rare book, which has to be handed back in person anyway, knew that it would be checked on return, who would cut out a map? Also in view of the current safeguards about access to rare books, gross thieves and beginners probably have less opportunity to access the rarest books, so obvious thieves may not be the issue. It is those who have the knowledge and ability to select and then re-sell the rare maps that pose the highest danger, and yet those are the most trusted, and therefore offend us all the very most by their breach - in addition to the real loss of the map to the community. Joel is right about the sky not falling, this is not an everyday occurrence and I think our sense of pride and outrage at being betrayed by one of our own makes this such a hot button here. Howard Golden -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Barry Ruderman Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:55 AM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair Tony, Let me raise one issue that I believe has frustrated at least several dealers. At least one dealer and several institutions have stated to the media that Forbes Smiley has been suspected (and/or actively under investigation) for some time as a potential map thief. Unfortunately, this information was not shared with other institutions and the trade. Had anyone warned the institutions who were providing access to their collections and the dealers and collectors who were purchasing from Mr. Smiley that there was a serious concern, these innocent parties would have been on notice and better able to participate in the solution, perhaps at a much earlier point in time. Certainly, among members of the several trade organizations which are active in books and maps, there must be serious consideration given to the ethical ramifications of being aware of suspicious persons/activities, but not reporting them within the organization. A good argument can be made that by remaining silent, you contribute to the proliferation. Given that Mr. Smiley was a long standing (if oft discredited) part of the rare map trade (he had a well known reputation for failing to pay sellers for extended periods of time long before the current fiasco), it may have been more difficult to determine just how to respond to the suspicions, but at that point, caveat emptor/curator. The failure to disseminate the information has created a larger web of victims--collectors, dealers and institutions. There is no ready solution (and, as an amateur ethicist, I would opine that there is no right answer), but the issue certainly merits discussion and perhaps a more uniform set of expectations among institutions and the trade. Barry Ruderman > Colleagues, > > I wonder if this is the time to raise some of the broader issues that > relate to the allegations surrounding Forbes Smiley. Much of the > argument below takes forward the thoughts prompted by the > Bellwood/Perry thefts in Europe a > few years back, as set out in 'How should we respond to early map thefts?' > < > http://www.maphistory.info/response.html >. If you are seriously > interested > in these issues, please look at that. I will not repeat its points here. > > Bibliographical Aspects > ------------------------ > Where the earlier thefts mostly concerned maps removed from atlases, > we now seem to be dealing with single maps removed from early printed > books. The practical implications of this are significant. Whereas > atlases are usually > curated by map specialists (or at least their value and vulnerability are > well understood), the map as text illustration will usually (and > understandably) be found in a rare book collection. While the map > specialists (curators, collectors, dealers) will tend to know of the > existence and value of such maps, is the same true of the rare books > curator? In how many of those public collections that are likely to hold > such works is their special vulnerability understood? Steal one page from > a > first folio Shakespeare and you have nothing of value; slip into your > jacket > pocket a single sheet from a book with an early map of North America on it > and you may have a readily saleable, broadly untraceable, artefact worth > up > to six figures in dollars. > > The obvious conclusion is that institutions need to identify what are, > in terms of theft, possibly the *most vulnerable* items in their > entire collections, and then ensure that they are consulted only under > the strictest possible invigilation. Ideally, that would include > CCTV, which has once again proved its worth. > > But how are these maps, and the books that should still contain them, > to be identified? Again the answer is surely obvious: close > cooperation between the map specialists and the rare books curators. > For political reasons, this may not have happened in the past. It > must surely be initiated now. We > can be sure that the potential thief will have done their homework, even > if > the library hasn't. > > The (continuing) flood of newspaper articles has identified a few of > the books/maps involved (see < > http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html#lit >>). But those are presumably just the tip of the iceberg. We are told > that other libraries are checking their holdings. But what list are > they using to do this? Does it just include the titles already > mentioned? I sincerely hope it is more rigorous than that. > > It is of course very possible that there have been developments behind > the scenes. But has anybody compiled the kind of list a conscientious > thief might have prepared of early maps of North America, by working > through bibliographies, dealers' lists (particuarly, perhaps, Forbes Smiley's), > etc.? By his own admission, Smiley has been dealing for 25 years. If > the > allegations against him are found to be true, for how long might he > have been pillaging libraries? And what might be the full range of > material he could have targetted? > > Information-sharing (post-theft) > ------------------------------- > The main problem identified during the discussions three years ago was > the lack of information-sharing between different groups (curators, > dealers/auctions, law enforcement agencies). This was because of > separatge (and often fragmented) networks that, in addition, were > rarely as international as the trade in early maps. > > If a list has been compiled of all the books/maps known to have been > involved this time (or even, ideally, a list of all those titles that > are potentially relevant), how has this been circulated? Clearly, > handing it to a potential thief should be avoided but is there yet any > secure mechanism that can distribute such a list (assuming it exists) > to all the libraries *throughout the world* that might be expected to > hold early North American maps bound into books? And, for that > purpose, would OCLC, RLIN, NUC, ESTC, > etc. provide an adequate inventory of the relevant libraries? > > The British Library has discovered losses among the material Smiley > consulted. What about the other major collections around Europe? > > Forbes Smiley is a map dealer and there are some curators who are > suspicious of dealers in general. This is unjustified and > counter-productive. The trade has its own organisations with codes of > practice that allow it to police its members. It is significant that > Smiley is reported as not being > a member of such an organisation. Curators should also remember that, > sadly, some of their members have been guilty of a betrayal of trust in > the > past. To avoid being the accidental conduit for stolen maps, dealers must > know what has been taken, and in as much 'copy-specific' detail as > possible > if they are to help catch thieves. The need for libraries to disclose > what > they have lost, in full and as speedily as possible, was urged in < > http://www.maphistory.info/response.html >. That policy, which is in line > with recommendations from rare books organisations, seems now to be > generally accepted, even if there has been no move to create the proposed > central, web-based register of stolen maps. > > Forensic identification > ---------------------- > It has been rightly stated that it is very difficult to prove that a > particular map came originally from a particular volume, unless there > was a library stamp (which remains visible). In the case of an atlas > map, it can > often be shown to fit back exactly into its parent volume. The maps > involved in this case, however, are likely to have been folded into the > volume and to have a different overall size. > > However, the map may have left a 'footprint', particularly if it was > folded several times - an indentation like a platemark, showing its > original size. > Even if the folds have subsequently been pressed out, they can usually be > seen and measured, allowing the original size in the volume to be > calculated > precisely. There may perhaps be offsetting of the neighbouring text on > the > verso of the map, or matching worm-holes. All of which makes it important > to attempt to match any suspect map with a vandalised volume. > > Given that these issues have wide relevance I would be grateful if > this message might be copied to other interested lists. Thank you. > > Tony Campbell > ****************************************** > t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > > 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' > http://www.maphistory.info/ > > [part of the WWW-Virtual Library] > ****************************************** > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: > 10/08/2005 > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted > by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements > and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do > not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The > University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views > of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info > -- Barry Ruderman 1298 Prospect, Suite 2C La Jolla, CA 92037 (858) 551-8500 (858) 551-8593 (fax) blr@raremaps.com www.raremaps.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "john a w lock" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:48:06 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.963 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.636, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: As I recall, one of the reasons that Cambridge University Library finally installed CCTV after years of agonising over the implicit lack of trust in fellow academics was that they found themselves being actively targetted by people with faultless accreditation from other overseas academic institutions, the inference being (as I read it) that the thefts were thought to be part of the official purpose of the visit, not merely an individual acting alone. Sadly CCTV is not a universal panacea. I'm sure most people who have had to deal with it are aware that it generally requires the backup of curatorial vigilance and indeed awareness of its shortcomings. Unfortunately the shortcomings have a habit of only emerging after the event... John A W Lock What amazes me is that people handing out atlases don't weigh them in and out. In these days of digital balances small changes can be picked up and logged, even on larger volumes. It's an overhead but used conscientously it does protect against all but the most ingenious of bandits. Yet the only place I know that does this is the Essex County Record Office. . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jens Bornholt" To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft > Is there a way a sort of internationally accepted ID-Card could be handed > to persons who are KNOWN to be honourable in order to facilitate their > access to Museums, Libraries etc? > The card I envision should be handed out by an internationally accepted > organization, perhaps such as the International Map Collectors Society > IMCoS, renewable yearly. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:23:39 -0400 From: Joel Kovarsky User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: john a w lock wrote: >As I recall, one of the reasons that Cambridge University Library finally >installed CCTV > > There are a number of librarians who monitor this list (and others, like Maps-L) who have likely had extensive exposure to discussions concerning the security of rare books and manuscripts, as this sort of thing is hardly a new problem. See: . That link deals with many issues besides theft, and it is a bit out of date, but the point is that things can be done. Understandably budget is an issue, but that may be reconsidered for a number of reasons. Tony Campbell already posted links to his site, but one page referenced to look at is: . As to reporting the theft themselves, dealers have to know, and it may be possible to have networks given lists of missing items anonymously, to be handled through one or two people in the organization, so the privacy of the reporting institution is protected, and any subsequent notifications of potentially stolen items can be handled in a pre-planned fashion, allowing for both legal and privacy concerns. Again, it may take a bit of work, but it should be emphasized (as Tony and Barry did) that the dealers and librarians have to cooperate to improve the situation, since it is inevitable that some of these items will make it to market. Obviously, internal improvement of library map inventory systems is another matter. Joel Kovarsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] More on the map theft Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:27:36 +0100 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] More on the map theft thread-index: AcWfK5Q2lNVwDcitQIC1AV0au+jVdgABMDbA From: "Barber, Peter" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.522 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: There are other places that weigh items in and out - like the BL's Department of Manuscripts. Weight, however, can vary quite considerably, depending on the degree of relative humidity on the day and on the recent storage history of the item and even with the most sophisticated scales, this would make it impossible to be certain about the absence of a sheet or two, unless the volume was checked folio by folio. This also happens, but it is difficult to be that thorough if you are working for a major library at check-out time and surrounded by queues of impatient readers. Peter Peter Barber MA, FSA, FRHistS Head of Map Collections Map Library British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB tel.(020) 7412 7701 fax (020) 7412 7780 -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of john a w lock Sent: 12 August 2005 11:48 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft As I recall, one of the reasons that Cambridge University Library finally installed CCTV after years of agonising over the implicit lack of trust in fellow academics was that they found themselves being actively targetted by people with faultless accreditation from other overseas academic institutions, the inference being (as I read it) that the thefts were thought to be part of the official purpose of the visit, not merely an individual acting alone. Sadly CCTV is not a universal panacea. I'm sure most people who have had to deal with it are aware that it generally requires the backup of curatorial vigilance and indeed awareness of its shortcomings. Unfortunately the shortcomings have a habit of only emerging after the event... John A W Lock What amazes me is that people handing out atlases don't weigh them in and out. In these days of digital balances small changes can be picked up and logged, even on larger volumes. It's an overhead but used conscientously it does protect against all but the most ingenious of bandits. Yet the only place I know that does this is the Essex County Record Office. . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jens Bornholt" To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft > Is there a way a sort of internationally accepted ID-Card could be handed > to persons who are KNOWN to be honourable in order to facilitate their > access to Museums, Libraries etc? > The card I envision should be handed out by an internationally accepted > organization, perhaps such as the International Map Collectors Society > IMCoS, renewable yearly. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info ************************************************************************** Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book. www.bl.uk/adoptabook The Library's St Pancras site is WiFI - enabled ************************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. ************************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] More on the map theft Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:37:23 +0100 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] More on the map theft Thread-Index: AcWfK5Q2lNVwDcitQIC1AV0au+jVdgABMDbAAABac2A= From: "Francis Herbert" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.475 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.124, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Which just proves the point - yet again (or: ad nauseam) - that you cannot beat the human input. Provided it's an interested and capable human (with an administration's full backing, of course). Francis Herbert f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections' -including some online catalogues (e.g., many maps up to ca 1940)] http://images.rgs.org/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Barber, Peter Sent: 12 August 2005 12:28 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] More on the map theft There are other places that weigh items in and out - like the BL's Department of Manuscripts. Weight, however, can vary quite considerably, depending on the degree of relative humidity on the day and on the recent storage history of the item and even with the most sophisticated scales, this would make it impossible to be certain about the absence of a sheet or two, unless the volume was checked folio by folio. This also happens, but it is difficult to be that thorough if you are working for a major library at check-out time and surrounded by queues of impatient readers. Peter Peter Barber MA, FSA, FRHistS Head of Map Collections Map Library British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB tel.(020) 7412 7701 fax (020) 7412 7780 -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of john a w lock Sent: 12 August 2005 11:48 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft As I recall, one of the reasons that Cambridge University Library finally installed CCTV after years of agonising over the implicit lack of trust in fellow academics was that they found themselves being actively targetted by people with faultless accreditation from other overseas academic institutions, the inference being (as I read it) that the thefts were thought to be part of the official purpose of the visit, not merely an individual acting alone. Sadly CCTV is not a universal panacea. I'm sure most people who have had to deal with it are aware that it generally requires the backup of curatorial vigilance and indeed awareness of its shortcomings. Unfortunately the shortcomings have a habit of only emerging after the event... John A W Lock What amazes me is that people handing out atlases don't weigh them in and out. In these days of digital balances small changes can be picked up and logged, even on larger volumes. It's an overhead but used conscientously it does protect against all but the most ingenious of bandits. Yet the only place I know that does this is the Essex County Record Office. . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jens Bornholt" To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [MapHist] More on the map theft > Is there a way a sort of internationally accepted ID-Card could be handed > to persons who are KNOWN to be honourable in order to facilitate their > access to Museums, Libraries etc? > The card I envision should be handed out by an internationally accepted > organization, perhaps such as the International Map Collectors Society > IMCoS, renewable yearly. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info ************************************************************************ ** Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book. www.bl.uk/adoptabook The Library's St Pancras site is WiFI - enabled ************************************************************************ ** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. ************************************************************************ ** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:30:46 +0100 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair thread-index: AcWfJfxoWfJeE5TJTO2q9YOqmT7K7wAB3e7g From: "Carlucci, April" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Mr Golden Nice try, but... There are a number of precautions that libraries can and do take, and those that don't take all the practical precautions that are available are not helping themselves or the entire community. For example: CCTV: if it's not obvious that CCTV is in use, there is less of a deterent; however, it is a good tool for discovering what's going on, and an excellent tool after the fact, provided the video record is inspected and retained. Coats and briefcases: because there are so many legal difficulties with searching people's belongings and person upon leaving a reading room, the best thing to do is not to allow them to bring in anything in the first place that can be used to remove stolen items from the room. Invigilation: if a reader is consulting a valuable or vulnerable item, be sure they do it at a desk which is out in the open, well lit, and within view of staff. Be sure all staff know that when issuing such items the reader must be directed to the appropriate desk. Be sure that your issuing system includes making sure consulted items have been returned before the reader leaves. Stamping: ensure that all sheets of valuable/vulnerable atlases, and maps in rare books, are clearly stamped with ownership. Unfortunately, this isn't as easy as it sounds, but it is achievable. On the other side, there are some ideas, which, although good, are not practical. Chief amongst these is the idea of checking a book page by page when it is returned. In large institutions, with large reading rooms and thus many readers, and with lots of valuable/vulnerable items, it is not possible to check items page by page. And could you be sure that the (probably) lower grade staff assigned to the rather menial job of doing this would know what they were looking for? Tony Campbell's idea of bibliographical control is indeed a goal to strive for. But again, it is resource-intensive. It took ten long and hard years for Rodney Shirley to complete his listing of maps in atlases in the British Library, and while we can all work towards this sort of control, it will be difficult to achieve. Tony makes an important point about the difference between map specialists and rare books curators, and ongoing co-operation is essential. His further points about forensic identification are excellent, and mean we should all be watching CSI: Crime Scene Investigation on tv for pointers. Mug shots of Forbes Smiley, no matter what the outcome, have not done the world of map dealers any good. Perhaps we should leave him in a room alone with them for an hour. And finally, to Mr Golden specifically, if you go to the British Museum looking for maps to research, you won't find any. The British *Library* has been administratively separate from the BM for 30 years and physically separate from the BM for 7 years. I know that lots of people in other countries don't understand this, so excuse me for taking the opportunity to make the point so obviously. When you do get to the BL, you will be asked for two forms of identification, you will be asked to leave your coat and bags in the cloak room, each request to see an item will be logged electronically against your name, you will be seated at a table directly in front of curatorial staff, and your every move will be recorded on CCTV. Other than that, welcome! April Carlucci Cataloguing Manager and Curator of Modern Maps British Library Map Collections -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Howard Golden Sent: 12 August 2005 11:06 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair nice try, but 1. This requires purchase of sophisticated scales 2. The thief could replace the stolen map with paper weighing the same 3. it is too anonymous. I think a thief should be confronted and my idea is that knowing that a physical check will occur may act as a deterrent. Howard Golden -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Andropov Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:59 AM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair In reaction to : There seems to be a simple solution when dealing with a book worth tens of thousands of dollars. It seems to me that it should not be a burden for the librarian who receives the book back to ask the person to wait while a simple check of the contents occurs. Would this take more than 60 to 90 seconds? I ask the librarians here if this seems to be such a burden. If everyone who checks out a very rare book, which has to be handed back in person anyway, knew that it would be checked on return, who would cut out a map? Would an highly accurate weighing scale be a solution ? Before handed over the rare book is weighed to the gram and registered. When returned the same procedure is followed. Removal or 'replacement' of pages should be detectable. Boudewijn Meijer -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] Namens Howard Golden Verzonden: vrijdag 12 augustus 2005 11:25 Aan: maphist@geog.uu.nl Onderwerp: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair I am researching Holy Land maps to create a carto-bibliography and intend to spend some time at the British Museum and in the Netherlands doing research. This situation concerns me a great deal since I assume it will create roadblocks and make research more time consuming. To fly anywhere today is a chore, having armed guards in the entrances to the metro and being required to wait while a receptionist calls upstairs to confirm you have an appointment with someone before you can enter a large office building today makes urban life unpleasant. Map collecting and librarianship has always been an area imbedded with a great deal of trust and a throwback to the "good old days" where people could deal one on one in normal intercourse. It especially strikes to the heart of the people on this list since we would think that anyone subscribing and participating here would, of course, be honest and trustworthy. I only had one incident of theft or attempted theft dealing with a map dealer in 25 years. In view of Barry's comment I will share that information with the list. His name is Dwayne Shealey of Antiquarian Collection in the US who first claimed that the 1611 Bible I bought had been stolen, then gave me a run around about how the police were recovering it, and finally reported it recovered and then sent me a facsimile by "error". In this way he had my money for almost a year and only due to my having been a prosecutor and a lawyer was I able to push the right buttons to get my money back. However my point about Barry's observation is that I doubt that people would be inclined to report suspicions to this list in view of the very real threat of Libel and Slander suits. I understand that truth may not be an absolute defense to a libel suit in England, is that true? In the US an employee can look at the recommendation letter sent to an inquiring new employer so reference letters now only contain dates of employment and confirmation he/she was an employee due to the fear of saying the wrong thing. I have no answer to the issue, I only know that I would be concerned both as an individual and as an attorney advising a client, about reporting suspicions to a list, or going to the authorities. It would have to be a STRONG suspicion. Long time non payment does not translate to being a thief, it may only indicate poor financial management, or three kids in college and high expenses. Think of the harm done to a person's reputation if a highly respected person like Tony Campbell or Frances Herbert or Alice Hudson would send forth a "suspicion" about a person. One can never retract a "suspicion". It is like throwing seeds to the wind, and then changing your mind and trying to recover the seeds a few months later. Some have already taken hold and began growing and you can never recover all of them. I agree with Barry about the need to discuss this issue, and I too have no easy solution. A "secret" list sent to libraries under seal begins a reign of terror and Star Chamber type proceedings. An open discussion allows for a truly unscrupulous person to counter-attach with a lawsuit thereby silencing others, while an innocent person has little chance of defending himself. I believe that no one here would report suspicions without a very strong basis, however in this business one's name is one's wealth. There seems to be a simple solution when dealing with a book worth tens of thousands of dollars. It seems to me that it should not be a burden for the librarian who receives the book back to ask the person to wait while a simple check of the contents occurs. Would this take more than 60 to 90 seconds? I ask the librarians here if this seems to be such a burden. If everyone who checks out a very rare book, which has to be handed back in person anyway, knew that it would be checked on return, who would cut out a map? Also in view of the current safeguards about access to rare books, gross thieves and beginners probably have less opportunity to access the rarest books, so obvious thieves may not be the issue. It is those who have the knowledge and ability to select and then re-sell the rare maps that pose the highest danger, and yet those are the most trusted, and therefore offend us all the very most by their breach - in addition to the real loss of the map to the community. Joel is right about the sky not falling, this is not an everyday occurrence and I think our sense of pride and outrage at being betrayed by one of our own makes this such a hot button here. Howard Golden ************************************************************************** Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book. www.bl.uk/adoptabook The Library's St Pancras site is WiFI - enabled ************************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. ************************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dyallen2@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:43:59 EDT Subject: [MapHist] Antique Map Forgeries To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.826 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.640, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.087, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level:

In connection with my study of the Velasco Map, I am looking for information about known forgeries of antique maps. I have not been able to turn up very much except the extensive literature on the Vinland Map and an article by Charles Gehring on the "Dela Croix Map." Does anybody know of other examples of forgeries of early maps? I am particularly interested in forgeries made between 1850 and 1930 of maps relating to the colonial history of North America.

David Allen

La Mesa, CA

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Antique Map Forgeries Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:37:09 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.571 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: I am aware of some supposedly early 16th century portolan charts including North America. I recall some in the Newberry Library's Ayer Collection and also two in the Huntington: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/scriptorium/hehweb/HM217.html http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/scriptorium/hehweb/HM218.html I seem to remember that each was 'signed' by an otherwise unknown, and frankly implausibly named chartmaker. Other similar ones (perhaps from the same factory) turn up from time to time. Not quite what you want, I realise. Tony -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Marcel van den Broecke" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Antique Map Forgeries Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:55:02 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.458 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.141, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Dear David Alan' I wrote an article on a forgery of Ortelius' first map of the Americas (1570) in Mercator's World 3(3) May/June 1998 "Unmasking a Forgery", pp. 46-49, but this does not quite fit in the time period you specify. Marcel van den Broecke Cartographica Neerlandica tel. +31 30 2202 396 fax +31 30 2203 326 e-mail: info@orteliusmaps.com URL www.orteliusmaps.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 7:43 PM Subject: [MapHist] Antique Map Forgeries > In connection with my study of the Velasco Map, I am looking for > information > about known forgeries of antique maps. I have not been able to turn up > very > much except the extensive literature on the Vinland Map and an article by > Charles Gehring on the "Dela Croix Map." Does anybody know of other > examples > of forgeries of early maps? I am particularly interested in forgeries > made > between 1850 and 1930 of maps relating to the colonial history of North > America. > > David Allen > La Mesa, CA > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:58:37 EDT Subject: [MapHist] What is this model of Japan? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.071 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.461, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_30_40=0.021, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level:
Colleagues,

I have been puzzling over this since I ran across it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7340998641&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Leaving aside the question of just what the item might be, I don't recognize the model of Japan, but I'm not deeply acquainted with c. 1600 representations. Does it look familiar to anyone?

Regards,
daan Strebe
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:04:00 -0700 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Antique Map Forgeries X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.388 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_20_30=0.226, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level: Re: [MapHist] Antique Map Forgeries

Dear David and Tony:

David Woodward wrote a fine article for The Map Collector 67, (July 1994), pp. 2-10, entitled "could these Italian maps be fakes?" The double occasion for that article was the last-minute withdrawal from a Christie's auction of a supposed 1519 "portolan chart of the world" drawn by one "Bonaldus," coupled with the fact that David had recently studied four similar maps at the Newberry Library and found them to be fakes made at the end of the nineteenth century or the beginning of the twentieth

Christie's "Bonaldus" chart was a map which the German-Austrian cartographic historian Father Josef Fischer had purchased for the collections at his school, Stella Matutina, before World War II, in the belief that the map was genuine. In 1941, however, he was having second thoughts about the authenticity of the map (which he had had to leave behind when the Nazis took over Stella Matutina), and he wrote an article about his misgivings with which David was familiar.

Additional information about this topic may be found on p. 373 of my recent book "Maps, Myths, and Men: The Story of the Vinland Map," but I expect that for David Allen the real pay dirt here will come from David Woodward's thoughtful piece.

Best regards,

Kirsten A. Seaver

I am aware of some supposedly early 16th century portolan charts including
North America. I recall some in the Newberry Library's Ayer Collection and
also two in the Huntington:

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/scriptorium/hehweb/HM217.html
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/scriptorium/hehweb/HM218.html

I seem to remember that each was 'signed' by an otherwise unknown, and
frankly implausibly named chartmaker. Other similar ones (perhaps from the
same factory) turn up from time to time.

Not quite what you want, I realise.

Tony

David Allen asked Aug. 12, 2005:

In connection with my study of the Velasco Map, I am looking for information
about known forgeries of antique maps. I have not been able to turn up very
much except the extensive literature on the Vinland Map and an article by
Charles Gehring on the "Dela Croix Map." Does anybody know of other examples
of forgeries of early maps? I am particularly interested in forgeries made
between 1850 and 1930 of maps relating to the colonial history of North America.

David Allen
La Mesa, CA

--

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:21:31 -0400 From: John Woram Subject: Re: [MapHist] What is this model of Japan? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.784 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.243, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_SOFTFAIL=3.14] X-Spam-Level: Two things on the map look quite similar to other works by William Hacke (ca. 1685). The legend in the lower left-hand corner is similar in style to others I've seen by him. And the "Ae" ("Aequinoctial") ligature seen in the "Map 5" detail of Cellebis, Ceram, etc. is almost identical to the same letters in the same word on other Hacke charts. John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nBCmdK/lFznTuUCXmtK06eXDOXpcT1w6gXtpqHGZ4IitOPwevqr02FW1SuGSK71N; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Dorothy Sloan" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Antique Map Forgeries Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:39:57 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: f33403415f50180b84b095f4ad0a658b3394c2b657dba48e74bf435c0eb9d478819d4bc37d9c2ebffbb2e74e4a94453266908bf41c43153b350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.142.83.101 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.504 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.048, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_BIG=0.142, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level:

Ptolemy world map, Ulm, ca. 1482.

Paper on forgery is more limp.

Dimensions are a bit smaller.

Forgery has scroll down instead of up.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dyallen2@aol.com

To: maphist@geog.uu.nl

Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:43 PM

Subject: [MapHist] Antique Map Forgeries

In connection with my study of the Velasco Map, I am looking for information about known forgeries of antique maps. I have not been able to turn up very much except the extensive literature on the Vinland Map and an article by Charles Gehring on the "Dela Croix Map." Does anybody know of other examples of forgeries of early maps? I am particularly interested in forgeries made between 1850 and 1930 of maps relating to the colonial history of North America.

David Allen

La Mesa, CA

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Batavier1@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:13:58 EDT Subject: Blaeu forgeries New Amsterdam Re: [MapHist] Antique Map Forgeries To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5038 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.892 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.640, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_30_40=0.021, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level:

In a message dated 8/12/2005 2:40:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, dorothysloanrarebooks@earthlink.net writes:

I am particularly interested in forgeries made between 1850 and 1930

Of the 1650 Blaeu stand-alone etching of Nieuw Amsterdam, on exclusive contemporary Blaeu paper, usually called by dealers "the Visscher view" because it was incorporated, together with the 1650 Jansson map of Nieuw Netherland, in the 1651 composite emendata map by Visscher, later copies exist on "old" paper (not Blaeu paper). The paper is generic and there is a deep impression of a purported plate mark. The authentic Blaeu views were "cuttings" so no deep plate marks exist. The "forgeries" are not as detailed as the originals because, in the photographic copying process and etching, the definition of the lines suffered so that in the darker shadow portions the ink clotted. Because of the immense interest about the New Netherland period in the early twentieth-century and the already wide use of photograpy, the forgeries could be from that time.

Joep de Koning

Batavier1@aol.com

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,104,1122868800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="69854259:sNHT1722358280" X-Sender: sanderva@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:54:14 -0400 To: From: Tom Sander Subject: [MapHist] SHD 2005 Meeting - Fees soon to increase X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.059 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.255, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_20_30=0.226, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHOUTING3=0.019, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039] X-Spam-Level: To all map lovers, historians, explorers, and those interested in the history of discoveries:

1. SHD MEETING – REGISTRATION FEE INCREASES IN 19 DAYS. The SHD registration fee for the 46th Annual Meeting of the Society for the History of Discoveries in Williamsburg Virginia increases for all mailings postmarked September 1 or later. See the SHD meeting website at http://www.sochistdisc.org/annual_meetings/annual_2005/annual_meeting_2005.htm

2. SHD MEETING - HOTEL BOOKINGS
Secure hotel reservations NOW. Again, see the SHD meeting website for instructions and, when booking reservations, be sure to say MAP SYMPOSIUM RATE. Those not saying this phrase are being quoted higher rates or are being turned away due to tight accommodations in those days close to the Columbus Day holiday weekend.

3. PRE-SHD - MAP SYMPOSIUM

Colonial Williamsburg has organized a map symposium “Mapping Colonial America” in the several days immediately prior to the SHD meeting. The program is at http://www.history.org/history/institute/institute_about.cfm .

There is a cost involved for registration for the CW Symposium. Because Rosh Hashanah falls on the first day of the symposium, programming on that day consists of brief orientation remarks from a member of Colonial Williamsburg's curatorial staff followed by a reception. A discounted registration fee of $185 per person is available to anyone able to attend only the second and third days of the symposium.
Contact Colonial Williamsburg directly with any questions. Information is at the CW website above.

Regards,
Tom Sander

***************************************************
Thomas F. Sander
SHD Web Content Manager & Vice-President Elect
P.O. Box 10793
Burke, VA 22009-0793 USA

Tel: 703-426-2880 Fax: 703-426-2881
E-Mail: sanderva@erols.com Web: www.sochistdisc.org X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] What is this model of Japan? Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:26:20 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.572 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: It is clearly a 17th century Thames School chart. Thomas R. Smith listed five known charts of the 'China Sea and Pacific' [p.99 in The Compleat Plattmaker, ed. Norman Thrower, 1978]. Three of those were by John Daniell, 1636-1639, another attributed to Daniell, and the last by his former apprentice Nicholas Comberford, 1665. It was originally on a pair of boards, hinged down the middle. The hinge holes can be seen, as also the water-staining that indicates its shipboard use. If it is an original, rather than a photographic copy, it is of considerable interest - and certainly a bargain at $303! Tony Campbell t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 9:58 PM Subject: [MapHist] What is this model of Japan? > > Colleagues, > > I have been puzzling over this since I ran across it: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7340998641&rd=1& > sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 > > Leaving aside the question of just what the item might be, I don't recognize > the model of Japan, but I'm not deeply acquainted with c. 1600 > representations. Does it look familiar to anyone? > > Regards, > daan Strebe > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: Fw: [MapHist] What is this model of Japan? Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:49:25 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.573 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: As a follow-up to my earlier response about the Thames School chart, a closer look reveals what is probably the signature (with date?) in three lines at the middle bottom. Unfortunately the scan is too poor for that to be read, and, as it was evidently not noted, it was not chosen as one of the enlargements. Given that the chartmakers involved tended to use a set formula for their signature, it might just be possible to work out whether, for example, it was Daniell or Comberford [assuming it was one of the two]. Tony Campbell t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] A listing of forgeries Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:00:37 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.574 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Unless this is something that David Allen has in his sights, would anybody be interested in pulling together what is emerging about known map forgeries? I would be happy to host such a page on 'Map History', or link to it. Tony Campbell t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:45:58 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.206 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.393, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Non-member submission from [mead cain ] Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:35:17 -0400 One bibliographic resource that is available, but perhaps not widely known is Volume 3 of the of the Annotated Catalogue of Maps in the A E Nordenskjold Collection (1984), which lists maps in notable 'books containing maps' published before 1800. This is also a model of what might be done more broadly. On 8/11/05, tony campbell wrote: > Colleagues, >=20 > Bibliographical Aspects > ------------------------ > Where the earlier thefts mostly concerned maps removed from atlases, we n= ow > seem to be dealing with single maps removed from early printed books. Th= e > practical implications of this are significant. Whereas atlases are usua= ... _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:47:35 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.213 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.386, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Not distributed automatically because of something illegal in the header. Peter Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:24:06 -0500 From: Robert Karrow Howard Golden makes a very good point about counting plates when books are returned. We routinely count the contents of folders of manuscripts before and after giving them to readers. This takes considerable time, but w still do it. We'd need more staff if we were going to count the hundreds of maps in some atlases, but it would be much easier to do with folding plates in books. Definitely a good idea. At 11:24 AM 8/12/2005 +0200, you wrote: > I am researching Holy Land maps to create a carto-bibliography and intend >to spend some time at the British Museum and in the Netherlands doing >research. This situation concerns me a great deal since I assume it will ... Robert W. Karrow, Jr., Ph.D. Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections The Newberry Library 60 W. Walton Street Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 Tel: 312-255-3554 FAX: 312-255-3646 E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org www.newberry.org For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see www.biblioserver.com/newberry _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:48:59 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.209 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.390, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Not distributed automatically because of something illegal in the header. Peter Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:15:07 -0500 From: Robert Karrow [NB: The following are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect those of the Newberry Library, its officers or trustees.] The case against Mr. Smiley has resulted in unusually wide-spread and thorough press coverage, probably because it combines a high-profile dealer (in contrast to the bland Mr. Bland), major libraries in the USA and abroad, and materials with very high price tags. As is usual in these cases, some institutions have been more forthcoming than others. The arguments for saying little or nothing are pretty obvious: dont give the institution a bad name, dont discourage would-be donors by suggesting that the collections theyve worked hard to form will not be safe inside your doors, dont call attention to your security lapses lest someone else think you an easy target. An argument has been made for not divulging the identity of items suspected of having been stolen because said items, if in the hands of other dealers or collectors will go underground,a view that is not very flattering to dealers or collectors. I would like to make a plea for the fullest possible disclosure of information by institutions, dealers, and collectors of missing materials, materials known to have been used by Mr. Smiley, and materials acquired from Mr. Smiley. Only when all this news is out there will we begin to be able to connect the dots and, begin the process of returning maps to their rightful owners, obtaining redress for fraudulent sales, and restoring the sense of civility, fairness, and integrity that characterizes most transactions in the antiquarian map world. Full disclosure will be embarrassing, perhaps highly embarrassing for institutions and individuals, but in our hearts we all know that the world of antiquarian dealers, libraries and collectors, like the larger world of scholarship to which it directly contributes, is a world ultimately sustained by trust. We must begin now to restore that trust by telling what we know when we know it and letting the chips fall where they may. It seems to me that in this current case there is a better-than-usual chance that the outcome will be positive. The high degree of public awareness of this investigation could result in the kind of severe punishment that would send a message that the raping of our common cultural heritage will be taken seriously. Robert W. Karrow, Jr.. Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections The Newberry Library 60 W. Walton Street Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 Tel: 312-255-3554 FAX: 312-255-3646 E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org www.newberry.org For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see www.biblioserver.com/newberry _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dyallen2@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:15:20 EDT Subject: Re: [MapHist] A listing of forgeries To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.86 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.606, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.087, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level:

I have no plans to compile a list of forgeries. However, I think such a list would be very useful for a variety of purposes, and that the subject would also be worth an article. I would certainly encourage someone to undertake this task (and consider submitting it to Coordinates for possible publication).

David Allen

La Mesa, CA

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure From: "Barry Ruderman" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at teamspirit.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.457 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.142, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: The call for full disclosure is very heartening. Let me chime in with a dealer's prospective. If I unknowingly buy a stolen map, I will likely lose money when I return it (thieves rarely make restitution). I may not be happy, but just like the occasional lost or damaged item, I will chalk it up as a cost of doing business. I'm the only one hurt and perhaps next time I'm more cautious, if possible. If I in turn sell the stolen map before discovering that it was stolen, the number of victims increases. I now also have a client who will be hurt. This is the far greater catastrophe for my personally and financially. I will be required to return funds. The client may have framed the map at additional expense. Most importantly, there is a bad taste in the mouth of someone who is more or less essential to my financial well being and in a less direct sense a part of the web which comprises our map community. If suddenly the top 100-200 collectors ceased to be interested in maps, the ripple effect for institutions and collectors would be felt in reduced sales and reduced direct donations and fund raising energies. Remember, these top collectors who will be victimized are often energetic organizers and fund raisers for their academic institutions of choice. Financial pain can be overcome. The damage to good will associated with selling and then reclaiming a stolen map is much more permanent. I can only imagine the feeling that a serious collector will experience. I suspect that it won't simply be the loss of the stolen map, but the greater feeling of betrayal in general and the sense of "why bother investing more intellect and emotion into this passion." Some will recover, some will not. Please don't add to the proliferation of victims. As with virtually every other facet of life, full and immediate disclosure is rarely a bad thing. On the other hand, sitting by silently and hoping that a problem will go away is rarely a sound course of action. The only way to stop proliferation is to keep the others in the community informed. Barry Ruderman > Not distributed automatically because of something illegal in the header. > Peter > > Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:15:07 -0500 > From: Robert Karrow > > > [NB: The following are my personal opinions and do not necessarily > reflect those of the Newberry Library, its officers or trustees.] > > > > The case against Mr. Smiley has resulted in unusually wide-spread and > thorough press coverage, probably because it combines a high-profile > dealer (in contrast to the bland Mr. Bland), major libraries in the > USA and abroad, and materials with very high price tags. As is usual > in these cases, some institutions have been more forthcoming than > others. The arguments for saying little or nothing are pretty > obvious: dont give the institution a bad name, dont discourage > would-be donors by suggesting that the collections theyve worked hard > to form will not be safe inside your doors, dont call attention to > your security lapses lest someone else think you an easy target. An > argument has been made for not divulging the identity of items > suspected of having been stolen because said items, if in the hands > of other dealers or collectors will go underground,a view that is not > very flattering to dealers or collectors. > > > > I would like to make a plea for the fullest possible disclosure of > information by institutions, dealers, and collectors of missing > materials, materials known to have been used by Mr. Smiley, and > materials acquired from Mr. Smiley. Only when all this news is out > there will we begin to be able to connect the dots and, begin the > process of returning maps to their rightful owners, obtaining redress > for fraudulent sales, and restoring the sense of civility, fairness, > and integrity that characterizes most transactions in the antiquarian > map world. > > > > Full disclosure will be embarrassing, perhaps highly embarrassing for > institutions and individuals, but in our hearts we all know that the > world of antiquarian dealers, libraries and collectors, like the > larger world of scholarship to which it directly contributes, is a > world ultimately sustained by trust. We must begin now to restore > that trust by telling what we know when we know it and letting the > chips fall where they may. It seems to me that in this current case > there is a better-than-usual chance that the outcome will be > positive. The high degree of public awareness of this investigation > could result in the kind of severe punishment that would send a > message that the raping of our common cultural heritage will be taken > seriously. > > Robert W. Karrow, Jr.. > Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, > Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections > The Newberry Library > 60 W. Walton Street > Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 > Tel: 312-255-3554 > FAX: 312-255-3646 > E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org > > www.newberry.org > For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see > www.biblioserver.com/newberry > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > -- Barry Ruderman 1298 Prospect, Suite 2C La Jolla, CA 92037 (858) 551-8500 (858) 551-8593 (fax) blr@raremaps.com www.raremaps.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SiH6xsAXB3YsqnGsOqCCiziGKYFUCvGTv2IpF0/JAQ+MMig7xwY2ti8b3IelMilq; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Dorothy Sloan" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:35:13 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: f33403415f50180b84b095f4ad0a658b3394c2b657dba48e74bf435c0eb9d478819d4bc37d9c2ebff72b8a2bdd7ed8c3b87780bd4356b217350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.142.83.101 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.57 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Dear Mr. Karrow: Thank you for an especially insightful post, as are those of Mr. Campbell and others. Your second paragraph really caught my attention for its resounding clarity. Much to my regret, in my professional life often I have been forced to deal with the disarray and discord arising out of problems relating to issues of authenticity and provenance of valuable historical materials. Nothing is accomplished by fellow victims attacking and blaming one another. Stereotyping dealers and institutions is a negative and futile exercise. Silence only compounds the problems. When presented with forged and stolen material in appraisals and as possible consignments, I have often been threatened with litigation for destroying the value of an "owner's" property. In this litigious age, being sued is a valid concern, even when one is right. Early into this detour of my career, I determined I would always tell the full truth as I saw it (with as much documentation as possible to back my statements and opinions) and face consequences head-on. This has not stopped threats of litigation, but on the other hand, many documents have been returned to their rightful owners and forgeries have been exposed for what they are. The bare truth must be o.k., at least in my case, because no threats have ever actually resulted in litigation. I realize such matters are more complex for institutions. It is essential that trade and institutions work together openly and honestly. This forum and the exlibris forum generate open dialogue that can make a difference, and I am thankful they exist. Dorothy Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: "by way of List-owner MapHist " To: Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:48 AM Subject: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure > Not distributed automatically because of something illegal in the header. > Peter > > Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:15:07 -0500 > From: Robert Karrow > > > [NB: The following are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect > those of the Newberry Library, its officers or trustees.] > > > > The case against Mr. Smiley has resulted in unusually wide-spread and > thorough press coverage, probably because it combines a high-profile > dealer (in contrast to the bland Mr. Bland), major libraries in the USA > and abroad, and materials with very high price tags. As is usual in these > cases, some institutions have been more forthcoming than others. The > arguments for saying little or nothing are pretty obvious: dont give the > institution a bad name, dont discourage would-be donors by suggesting that > the collections theyve worked hard to form will not be safe inside your > doors, dont call attention to your security lapses lest someone else think > you an easy target. An argument has been made for not divulging the > identity of items suspected of having been stolen because said items, if > in the hands of other dealers or collectors will go underground,a view > that is not very flattering to dealers or collectors. > > > > I would like to make a plea for the fullest possible disclosure of > information by institutions, dealers, and collectors of missing materials, > materials known to have been used by Mr. Smiley, and materials acquired > from Mr. Smiley. Only when all this news is out there will we begin to be > able to connect the dots and, begin the process of returning maps to their > rightful owners, obtaining redress for fraudulent sales, and restoring the > sense of civility, fairness, and integrity that characterizes most > transactions in the antiquarian map world. > > > > Full disclosure will be embarrassing, perhaps highly embarrassing for > institutions and individuals, but in our hearts we all know that the world > of antiquarian dealers, libraries and collectors, like the larger world of > scholarship to which it directly contributes, is a world ultimately > sustained by trust. We must begin now to restore that trust by telling > what we know when we know it and letting the chips fall where they may. > It seems to me that in this current case there is a better-than-usual > chance that the outcome will be positive. The high degree of public > awareness of this investigation could result in the kind of severe > punishment that would send a message that the raping of our common > cultural heritage will be taken seriously. > > Robert W. Karrow, Jr.. > Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, > Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections > The Newberry Library > 60 W. Walton Street > Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 > Tel: 312-255-3554 > FAX: 312-255-3646 > E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org > > www.newberry.org > For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see > www.biblioserver.com/newberry > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:12:22 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.574 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: re the posts from Bob, Barry, Dorothy, et al., I wholeheartedly endorse the call for full and immediate disclosure. My 2002 opinion piece, 'How should we respond to early map thefts?' < http://www.maphistory.info/response.html > included further arguments in the same direction - one, incidentally, that is increasingly being recommended by the library organisations. The trade are the most likely to be in a position to identify stolen materials, but only if sufficient 'copy-specific' details are given. For every 'wrong' example in the marketplace, there are likely to be other legitimate ones. Very precise *physical* description of each map is therefore essential. "A copy of map x from book y" is usually of little use. I doubt anyone is going to come on this list and argue against disclosure. The trouble is that some security or press officers (in the larger institutions) may have secrecy forced upon them. In those cases, we presumably will not learn of any missing maps they discover. Those who are active in library organisations need to argue strongly for disclosure to become a declared policy. Tony Campbell t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:53:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure From: hgolden@terrapartners.com To: maphist@geog.uu.nl User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.592 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007] X-Spam-Level: "The high degree of public awareness of this investigation could result in the kind of severe punishment that would send a message that the raping of our common cultural heritage will be taken seriously." And, may I suggest, punished appropriately and with full force of the law! Howard Not distributed automatically because of something illegal in the header. > Peter > > Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:15:07 -0500 > From: Robert Karrow > > > [NB: The following are my personal opinions and do not necessarily > reflect those of the Newberry Library, its officers or trustees.] > > > > The case against Mr. Smiley has resulted in unusually wide-spread and > thorough press coverage, probably because it combines a high-profile > dealer (in contrast to the bland Mr. Bland), major libraries in the > USA and abroad, and materials with very high price tags. As is usual > in these cases, some institutions have been more forthcoming than > others. The arguments for saying little or nothing are pretty > obvious: dont give the institution a bad name, dont discourage > would-be donors by suggesting that the collections theyve worked hard > to form will not be safe inside your doors, dont call attention to > your security lapses lest someone else think you an easy target. An > argument has been made for not divulging the identity of items > suspected of having been stolen because said items, if in the hands > of other dealers or collectors will go underground,a view that is not > very flattering to dealers or collectors. > > > > I would like to make a plea for the fullest possible disclosure of > information by institutions, dealers, and collectors of missing > materials, materials known to have been used by Mr. Smiley, and > materials acquired from Mr. Smiley. Only when all this news is out > there will we begin to be able to connect the dots and, begin the > process of returning maps to their rightful owners, obtaining redress > for fraudulent sales, and restoring the sense of civility, fairness, > and integrity that characterizes most transactions in the antiquarian > map world. > > > > Full disclosure will be embarrassing, perhaps highly embarrassing for > institutions and individuals, but in our hearts we all know that the > world of antiquarian dealers, libraries and collectors, like the > larger world of scholarship to which it directly contributes, is a > world ultimately sustained by trust. We must begin now to restore > that trust by telling what we know when we know it and letting the > chips fall where they may. It seems to me that in this current case > there is a better-than-usual chance that the outcome will be > positive. The high degree of public awareness of this investigation > could result in the kind of severe punishment that would send a > message that the raping of our common cultural heritage will be taken > seriously. > > Robert W. Karrow, Jr.. > Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, > Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections > The Newberry Library > 60 W. Walton Street > Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 > Tel: 312-255-3554 > FAX: 312-255-3646 > E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org > > www.newberry.org > For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see > www.biblioserver.com/newberry > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:07:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure From: hgolden@terrapartners.com To: maphist@geog.uu.nl User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.592 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007] X-Spam-Level: Brilliantly stated and well phrased. This pleas needs nothing more to be aded and should give pause to all concerned. I applaud Mr. Ruderman for his erudite exposition of the situation. Howard Golden The call for full disclosure is very heartening. Let me chime in with a > dealer's prospective. > > If I unknowingly buy a stolen map, I will likely lose money when I return > it (thieves rarely make restitution). I may not be happy, but just like > the occasional lost or damaged item, I will chalk it up as a cost of doing > business. I'm the only one hurt and perhaps next time I'm more cautious, > if possible. > > If I in turn sell the stolen map before discovering that it was stolen, > the number of victims increases. I now also have a client who will be > hurt. This is the far greater catastrophe for my personally and > financially. I will be required to return funds. The client may have > framed the map at additional expense. Most importantly, there is a bad > taste in the mouth of someone who is more or less essential to my > financial well being and in a less direct sense a part of the web which > comprises our map community. If suddenly the top 100-200 collectors > ceased to be interested in maps, the ripple effect for institutions and > collectors would be felt in reduced sales and reduced direct donations and > fund raising energies. Remember, these top collectors who will be > victimized are often energetic organizers and fund raisers for their > academic institutions of choice. > > Financial pain can be overcome. The damage to good will associated with > selling and then reclaiming a stolen map is much more permanent. I can > only imagine the feeling that a serious collector will experience. I > suspect that it won't simply be the loss of the stolen map, but the > greater feeling of betrayal in general and the sense of "why bother > investing more intellect and emotion into this passion." Some will > recover, some will not. > > Please don't add to the proliferation of victims. As with virtually every > other facet of life, full and immediate disclosure is rarely a bad thing. > On the other hand, sitting by silently and hoping that a problem will go > away is rarely a sound course of action. The only way to stop > proliferation is to keep the others in the community informed. > > Barry Ruderman > > > > >> Not distributed automatically because of something illegal in the >> header. >> Peter >> >> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:15:07 -0500 >> From: Robert Karrow >> >> >> [NB: The following are my personal opinions and do not necessarily >> reflect those of the Newberry Library, its officers or trustees.] >> >> >> >> The case against Mr. Smiley has resulted in unusually wide-spread and >> thorough press coverage, probably because it combines a high-profile >> dealer (in contrast to the bland Mr. Bland), major libraries in the >> USA and abroad, and materials with very high price tags. As is usual >> in these cases, some institutions have been more forthcoming than >> others. The arguments for saying little or nothing are pretty >> obvious: dont give the institution a bad name, dont discourage >> would-be donors by suggesting that the collections theyve worked hard >> to form will not be safe inside your doors, dont call attention to >> your security lapses lest someone else think you an easy target. An >> argument has been made for not divulging the identity of items >> suspected of having been stolen because said items, if in the hands >> of other dealers or collectors will go underground,a view that is not >> very flattering to dealers or collectors. >> >> >> >> I would like to make a plea for the fullest possible disclosure of >> information by institutions, dealers, and collectors of missing >> materials, materials known to have been used by Mr. Smiley, and >> materials acquired from Mr. Smiley. Only when all this news is out >> there will we begin to be able to connect the dots and, begin the >> process of returning maps to their rightful owners, obtaining redress >> for fraudulent sales, and restoring the sense of civility, fairness, >> and integrity that characterizes most transactions in the antiquarian >> map world. >> >> >> >> Full disclosure will be embarrassing, perhaps highly embarrassing for >> institutions and individuals, but in our hearts we all know that the >> world of antiquarian dealers, libraries and collectors, like the >> larger world of scholarship to which it directly contributes, is a >> world ultimately sustained by trust. We must begin now to restore >> that trust by telling what we know when we know it and letting the >> chips fall where they may. It seems to me that in this current case >> there is a better-than-usual chance that the outcome will be >> positive. The high degree of public awareness of this investigation >> could result in the kind of severe punishment that would send a >> message that the raping of our common cultural heritage will be taken >> seriously. >> >> Robert W. Karrow, Jr.. >> Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, >> Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections >> The Newberry Library >> 60 W. Walton Street >> Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 >> Tel: 312-255-3554 >> FAX: 312-255-3646 >> E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org >> >> www.newberry.org >> For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see >> www.biblioserver.com/newberry >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >> hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >> the views of the author. >> List Information: http://www.maphist.info >> > > > -- > Barry Ruderman > 1298 Prospect, Suite 2C > La Jolla, CA 92037 > (858) 551-8500 > (858) 551-8593 (fax) > blr@raremaps.com > www.raremaps.com > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:47:02 -0800 From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.733) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.491 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level: Hear! Hear! The only sure way to stop library theft is to never allow access to its holdings. Since that defeats the purpose of the library, the simple steps in use now (nothing but pencils carried into the room, at least a quick inspection upon leaving, etc.) will continue to deter criminals. What percentage of holdings are stolen per year? I would imagine it's minute. So, a little common sense and, as Karrow urges, mutual trust, will go a long ways. Dee >> >> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:15:07 -0500 >> From: Robert Karrow >> >> >> [NB: The following are my personal opinions and do not necessarily >> reflect those of the Newberry Library, its officers or trustees.] >> >> >> >> The case against Mr. Smiley has resulted in unusually wide-spread and >> thorough press coverage, probably because it combines a high-profile >> dealer (in contrast to the bland Mr. Bland), major libraries in the >> USA and abroad, and materials with very high price tags. As is usual >> in these cases, some institutions have been more forthcoming than >> others. The arguments for saying little or nothing are pretty >> obvious: dont give the institution a bad name, dont discourage >> would-be donors by suggesting that the collections theyve worked hard >> to form will not be safe inside your doors, dont call attention to >> your security lapses lest someone else think you an easy target. An >> argument has been made for not divulging the identity of items >> suspected of having been stolen because said items, if in the hands >> of other dealers or collectors will go underground,a view that is not >> very flattering to dealers or collectors. >> >> >> >> I would like to make a plea for the fullest possible disclosure of >> information by institutions, dealers, and collectors of missing >> materials, materials known to have been used by Mr. Smiley, and >> materials acquired from Mr. Smiley. Only when all this news is out >> there will we begin to be able to connect the dots and, begin the >> process of returning maps to their rightful owners, obtaining redress >> for fraudulent sales, and restoring the sense of civility, fairness, >> and integrity that characterizes most transactions in the antiquarian >> map world. >> >> >> >> Full disclosure will be embarrassing, perhaps highly embarrassing for >> institutions and individuals, but in our hearts we all know that the >> world of antiquarian dealers, libraries and collectors, like the >> larger world of scholarship to which it directly contributes, is a >> world ultimately sustained by trust. We must begin now to restore >> that trust by telling what we know when we know it and letting the >> chips fall where they may. It seems to me that in this current case >> there is a better-than-usual chance that the outcome will be >> positive. The high degree of public awareness of this investigation >> could result in the kind of severe punishment that would send a >> message that the raping of our common cultural heritage will be taken >> seriously. >> >> Robert W. Karrow, Jr.. >> Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, >> Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections >> The Newberry Library >> 60 W. Walton Street >> Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 >> Tel: 312-255-3554 >> FAX: 312-255-3646 >> E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org >> >> www.newberry.org >> For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see >> www.biblioserver.com/newberry >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >> hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any >> responsibility for >> the views of the author. >> List Information: http://www.maphist.info >> >> > > > -- > Barry Ruderman > 1298 Prospect, Suite 2C > La Jolla, CA 92037 > (858) 551-8500 > (858) 551-8593 (fax) > blr@raremaps.com > www.raremaps.com > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA www.observatorybooks.com deelong@alaska.com 907/586-9676 200 North Franklin Street Juneau, Alaska, 99801 Since 1977 The bridge of life is sometimes found in the rainbow _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:28:07 -0400 From: Joel Kovarsky User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.449 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: tony campbell wrote: I doubt anyone is going to come on this list and argue against disclosure. >The trouble is that some security or press officers (in the larger >institutions) may have secrecy forced upon them. > > Like with all other concepts, there might be some variation in the interpretation of 'full disclosure'. There could still be an element of secrecy if missing, presumably stolen, items were posted to networks of relevant dealers, without necessarily disclosing the exact institution to all concerned. The group of people acting as conduits to the affected institutions could be much smaller. This has its own problems, but would at least be a compromise position. (And one that I'm sure has been mentioned in past discussions of this topic.) Joel Kovarsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:33:19 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.482 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.117, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: With all the discussions going on, isn't it possible to "watermark" all valuable stuff with an infrared stamp, which can't be seen with normal light, but will be disclosed immediately under a special lamp. I know some people would consider this a violation of the property, but a unique number on each map and page of rare books, on a place where it can't be taken out will, at least, stop the selling of stolen property. On the other hand, there are always collectors who won't care where something comes from. On a lighter note: even the maps on my homepage are "stolen" I saw some back last Friday on an exhibition of Korean art for the last 60 years. ;-) I don't care that much, since I think it's educational. Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index.htm Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:49:21 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Following the path Robert Karrow has illuminated, it appears there are two key aspects to this issue: 1) The authentication of individual items, in a manner that provides a high degree of assurance to the purchaser (and by implication, to the dealer in the middle). 2) An independent register of losses, suspected fraudulent copies, bad deals, and any other relevant factors. This register would provide sufficient information to dealers and buyers to manage risk, without necessarily creating embarrassment to the originating sources. The source could remain hidden on the database. I would propose such a register be created and managed independently by people such as Tony Campbell (apologies for not pre-consulting Tony), or a new entity managed perhaps by Imago Mundi. Funding could come from a very small voluntary levy on member dealers, who would receive access to the database, and assistance in dealing with issues. Their reward would be the degree of assurance provided by the mutual cooperation. Michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Ross Voice: +64.21.897.889 Fax: +64.21.218.2166 michael.ross@clear.net.nz Legal Notice: The information in this electronic mail message is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to, or use of, this Internet electronic mail message by anyone else is not authorised. Please delete all copies of this message if you are not the intended addressee. __________________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 3:49 AM > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure > > > Not distributed automatically because of something illegal in the header. Peter > > Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:15:07 -0500 > From: Robert Karrow > > > [NB: The following are my personal opinions and do not necessarily > reflect those of the Newberry Library, its officers or trustees.] > > > > The case against Mr. Smiley has resulted in unusually wide-spread and > thorough press coverage, probably because it combines a high-profile > dealer (in contrast to the bland Mr. Bland), major libraries in the > USA and abroad, and materials with very high price tags. As is usual > in these cases, some institutions have been more forthcoming than > others. The arguments for saying little or nothing are pretty > obvious: dont give the institution a bad name, dont discourage > would-be donors by suggesting that the collections theyve worked hard > to form will not be safe inside your doors, dont call attention to > your security lapses lest someone else think you an easy target. An > argument has been made for not divulging the identity of items > suspected of having been stolen because said items, if in the hands > of other dealers or collectors will go underground,a view that is not > very flattering to dealers or collectors. > > > > I would like to make a plea for the fullest possible disclosure of > information by institutions, dealers, and collectors of missing > materials, materials known to have been used by Mr. Smiley, and > materials acquired from Mr. Smiley. Only when all this news is out > there will we begin to be able to connect the dots and, begin the > process of returning maps to their rightful owners, obtaining redress > for fraudulent sales, and restoring the sense of civility, fairness, > and integrity that characterizes most transactions in the antiquarian > map world. > > > > Full disclosure will be embarrassing, perhaps highly embarrassing for > institutions and individuals, but in our hearts we all know that the > world of antiquarian dealers, libraries and collectors, like the > larger world of scholarship to which it directly contributes, is a > world ultimately sustained by trust. We must begin now to restore > that trust by telling what we know when we know it and letting the > chips fall where they may. It seems to me that in this current case > there is a better-than-usual chance that the outcome will be > positive. The high degree of public awareness of this investigation > could result in the kind of severe punishment that would send a > message that the raping of our common cultural heritage will be taken > seriously. > > Robert W. Karrow, Jr.. > Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, > Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections > The Newberry Library > 60 W. Walton Street > Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 > Tel: 312-255-3554 > FAX: 312-255-3646 > E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org > > www.newberry.org > For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see > www.biblioserver.com/newberry > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:54:22 +1200 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Borrowing a solution from the banking industry, perhaps a net weight formula could be used. I for one have seen the difference a $1 bill makes on bank counting scales...which in effect is a page. Could this same approach not be used for these items, especially as variables such as water content are well controlled? Fast, accurate, and cheap. Regards Michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Ross Voice: +64.21.897.889 Fax: +64.21.218.2166 michael.ross@clear.net.nz Legal Notice: The information in this electronic mail message is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to, or use of, this Internet electronic mail message by anyone else is not authorised. Please delete all copies of this message if you are not the intended addressee. __________________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 3:48 AM > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: RE: [MapHist] Issues arising out of the Smiley affair > > > Not distributed automatically because of something illegal in the header. Peter > > Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:24:06 -0500 > From: Robert Karrow > > Howard Golden makes a very good point about counting plates when > books are returned. We routinely count the contents of folders of > manuscripts before and after giving them to readers. This takes > considerable time, but w still do it. We'd need more staff if we > were going to count the hundreds of maps in some atlases, but it > would be much easier to do with folding plates in books. Definitely > a good idea. > > > At 11:24 AM 8/12/2005 +0200, you wrote: > > > I am researching Holy Land maps to create a carto-bibliography and intend > >to spend some time at the British Museum and in the Netherlands doing > >research. This situation concerns me a great deal since I assume it will > ... > > Robert W. Karrow, Jr., Ph.D. > Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, > Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections > The Newberry Library > 60 W. Walton Street > Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 > Tel: 312-255-3554 > FAX: 312-255-3646 > E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org > > www.newberry.org > For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see > www.biblioserver.com/newberry > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GNZV0q/AOahu4/v1ZLp5n4RXXMFiWj0LpD8jqqbDsh/C0xGiFeFErmm5S+3Ihy1Y; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Dorothy Sloan" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:01:17 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: f33403415f50180b84b095f4ad0a658b3394c2b657dba48e74bf435c0eb9d478819d4bc37d9c2ebfd204e07aaecde9b7daf7b364d6b8bd20350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.142.83.101 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.579 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Please keep in mind that losses also should be reported to Everett C. Wilkie, Jr. ewilkie@ix.netcom.com, who will list such losses on the RBMS "Incidents of Theft List" available at www.rbms.org. Reports of forgeries should also be send to Mr. Wilkie. At this point, this list goes back for fifteen years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Ross" To: Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 7:49 PM Subject: RE: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure > Following the path Robert Karrow has illuminated, it appears there are two > key aspects to this issue: > > 1) The authentication of individual items, in a manner that provides a > high degree of assurance to the > purchaser (and by implication, to the dealer in the middle). > > 2) An independent register of losses, suspected fraudulent copies, bad > deals, and any other relevant factors. > This register would provide sufficient information to dealers and buyers > to manage risk, without necessarily > creating embarrassment to the originating sources. The source could remain > hidden on the database. > > I would propose such a register be created and managed independently by > people such as Tony Campbell > (apologies for not pre-consulting Tony), or a new entity managed perhaps > by Imago Mundi. Funding could come > from a very small voluntary levy on member dealers, who would receive > access to the database, and assistance > in dealing with issues. Their reward would be the degree of assurance > provided by the mutual cooperation. > > Michael > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Ross > Voice: +64.21.897.889 > Fax: +64.21.218.2166 > michael.ross@clear.net.nz > > > Legal Notice: > The information in this electronic mail message is confidential and may be > legally privileged. It is intended > solely for the addressee. Access to, or use of, this Internet electronic > mail message by anyone else is not > authorised. Please delete all copies of this message if you are not the > intended addressee. > __________________________________________________ > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] >> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 3:49 AM >> To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >> Subject: [MapHist] A Plea for Full Disclosure >> >> >> Not distributed automatically because of something illegal in the header. >> Peter >> >> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:15:07 -0500 >> From: Robert Karrow >> >> >> [NB: The following are my personal opinions and do not necessarily >> reflect those of the Newberry Library, its officers or trustees.] >> >> >> >> The case against Mr. Smiley has resulted in unusually wide-spread and >> thorough press coverage, probably because it combines a high-profile >> dealer (in contrast to the bland Mr. Bland), major libraries in the >> USA and abroad, and materials with very high price tags. As is usual >> in these cases, some institutions have been more forthcoming than >> others. The arguments for saying little or nothing are pretty >> obvious: dont give the institution a bad name, dont discourage >> would-be donors by suggesting that the collections theyve worked hard >> to form will not be safe inside your doors, dont call attention to >> your security lapses lest someone else think you an easy target. An >> argument has been made for not divulging the identity of items >> suspected of having been stolen because said items, if in the hands >> of other dealers or collectors will go underground,a view that is not >> very flattering to dealers or collectors. >> >> >> >> I would like to make a plea for the fullest possible disclosure of >> information by institutions, dealers, and collectors of missing >> materials, materials known to have been used by Mr. Smiley, and >> materials acquired from Mr. Smiley. Only when all this news is out >> there will we begin to be able to connect the dots and, begin the >> process of returning maps to their rightful owners, obtaining redress >> for fraudulent sales, and restoring the sense of civility, fairness, >> and integrity that characterizes most transactions in the antiquarian >> map world. >> >> >> >> Full disclosure will be embarrassing, perhaps highly embarrassing for >> institutions and individuals, but in our hearts we all know that the >> world of antiquarian dealers, libraries and collectors, like the >> larger world of scholarship to which it directly contributes, is a >> world ultimately sustained by trust. We must begin now to restore >> that trust by telling what we know when we know it and letting the >> chips fall where they may. It seems to me that in this current case >> there is a better-than-usual chance that the outcome will be >> positive. The high degree of public awareness of this investigation >> could result in the kind of severe punishment that would send a >> message that the raping of our common cultural heritage will be taken >> seriously. >> >> Robert W. Karrow, Jr.. >> Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps, >> Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections >> The Newberry Library >> 60 W. Walton Street >> Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 >> Tel: 312-255-3554 >> FAX: 312-255-3646 >> E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org >> >> www.newberry.org >> For a partial catalog of our cartographic holdings, see >> www.biblioserver.com/newberry >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >> hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >> the views of the author. >> List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] A listing of forgeries Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:41:52 +0100 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] A listing of forgeries Thread-Index: AcWf9kcZ2l8e7FNjRta5WBY1AS1EswBfENhw From: "Francis Herbert" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.479 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.120, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Even though not all the entries will suit David Allen's initiating enquiry on this subject may I remind people that an entry 'Forgery' was included - when relevant - in the third index, '(c) Subjects' - in the 'Imago Mundi Bibliography' from vol. 46 (1994) onwards. Except for the entry in vol. 52 (2000) when I made the subject 'Fakes' (perhaps a lapse, here, on the compiler's, or editorial team's, part!). One might expect references, bibliographies, and footnotes - within the articles already just cited on 'MapHist' and in the 'IM Bibliography' entries - to refer to similar forgeries/fakes. Thus, in one sense, the subject can be pursued a little further by following up the literature. So - over to you, Tony, as a starter! Francis Herbert (neither a fake, forgery, or genetically modified - yet) f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections' - including some online catalogues (e.g., many maps up to ca 1940)] http://images.rgs.org/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of tony campbell Sent: 13 August 2005 12:01 To: *MapHist Subject: [MapHist] A listing of forgeries Unless this is something that David Allen has in his sights, would anybody be interested in pulling together what is emerging about known map forgeries? I would be happy to host such a page on 'Map History', or link to it. Tony Campbell t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "john a w lock" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Weighty matters Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:26:44 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.041 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=1.558, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: a general view on various points raised last week [Howard Golden wrote:] > 1. This requires purchase of sophisticated scales > 2. The thief could replace the stolen map with paper weighing the same > 3. it is too anonymous. I think a thief should be confronted and my idea is > that knowing that a physical check will occur may act as a deterrent. 1. Absolutely, but for a large collection eminently justifiable on the Capex budget. 2. Incredibly difficult to do - we're talking fractions of a gramme here... 3. The check is done in front of the reader - hardly anonymous. [Boudewijn Meijer's point ] The simple page by page check isn't feasible (or simple!): - firstly it requires an expert knowledge of the individual item - not all old books let alone atlases are complete and may never have been so during their time in the library's care - and a major library may have multiple copies, all different. - secondly there's no guarantee that a detected missing page is down to the the current reader however clean the cut. I suspect Mr Smiley's lawyers will be hammering this one for everything they can get - thirdly it's slow and that can get to be very important at going home time! Weighing handles these issues rather well. Anyone can do it and it's session-specific. [re Peter Barber's points] What I've seen at Chelmsford is that weighing is surprisingly sensitive (fractions of a gramme) and consistent - I doubted its utility at first - and because the item is weighed on issue and on return the effect of long term environmental factors is effectively eliminated and the risk of calibration drift is reduced. It can pick up bookmarks and lost readers cards. Users accept it because that's the way things are done there and the policy is applied consistently. And the staff don't have to be all that interested to do a good job, just careful. regards John A W Lock I've been using the BL Mss dept for years and I never noticed things being weighed -but maybe I'm not reading the right documents. I shall keep my eyes peeled next time! One lives and learns. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] A listing of forgeries Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:06:44 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.575 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: I do hope somebody will be tempted by Francis Herbert's expert bibliographical prompting to take on the task of compiling a listing of map forgeries/fakes and the references to them. It really should not be too large a task and, once a first draft was mounted on the web, no doubt MapHist readers would suggest additions. Fakes - particularly the Italian ones that David Woodward described [in an article I had shamefully managed to forget] - turn up from time to time. Only by having all the information in one, immediately accessible place (e.g. a dynamic webpage) will we avoid the usual practices of reinventing the wheel and going round in circles. I am fully committed with the 'Map History' site, but there must be somebody on the list who could rise to this challenge. As I explain on the Acknowledgments page < http://www.maphistory.info/acknowledge.html >, the gateway site for the history of cartography is a 'a network of sites - a miniature web of its own'. I would be delighted to add the name of any new collaborator. If you have any doubt about your ability to compile such a listing, please write to me privately. I, Francis, and others would certainly do all we could to help. Tony Campbell ****************************************** t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://www.maphistory.info/ [part of the WWW-Virtual Library] ****************************************** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 14/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J. B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] The three "F"s Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:59:55 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.031 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.341, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_20_30=0.226, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level:

Yes, we do need a clearing house for information on "fakes, forgeries, facsimiles" and I hope someone can coordinate it. No, I am afraid the local historical society is consuming my life right now so I can't do it. We get into the sticky area of intent dealing with the first two and things aren't quite as straightforward as might appear. A forgery is, simplistically, a copy of an actual map pretending to be the original; a fake is a map pretending to be something it is not (a newly discovered early map actually made last week, for instance); a facsimile is an acknowledged copy of an original map. A facsimile, made with no intention to deceive, can be confused with an original by people who have limited experience with maps, but there is no original criminal intent. Maybe the Library of Congress should bring that old list of facsimile producers up to date.

Most of the maps in AN ATLAS OF FANTASY are, strictly, fakes, but they were never made to deceive. I suggest we limit what is sent to any clearinghouse to those maps created pretending to be what they are not with the intent to deceive. Perhaps if a particular well-made facsimile has been causing confusion, it might be mentioned in passing.

While it has nothing to do with fakes & forgeries, I still want to pass on an experience I once had with a photostat of a map. A woman came to the Free Library of Philadelphia's Map Collection waving a photocopy of a map she had made claiming it proved her house was built in Colonial times, a claim others were disputing. Yes, there was a mark at the spot we determined with later maps was exactly her house. To protect the originals, photostats had been made of many early Philadelphia maps and these were used, most people really didn't need to touch the originals. I first suggested that, as happened with a friend of mine, the original house was damaged (fire, insects, neglect) and was replaced using the still intact foundation from an earlier time. We finally went to the original and, lo, no indication of any building. In the process of phostating the original, a speck of something ended up at the exact spot on the map indicating where her house would later stand. No intent to deceive here, just bad luck.

JBP

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:11:14 -0400 From: "Pam van Ee" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] The three "F"s X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: There is no way that LC could update the old facsimile list because facsimiles are being made and sold through the internet. Anything that is now on line can be picked up, copied and sold. In addition, CDs can be burned so that additional copies can be made at some time in the future. There is no longer a finite group of producers that make and sell reproductions, though ethical people clearly state that the item is a copy. Patricia Molen van Ee Geography and Map Division Library of Congress >>> jbpost@netreach.net 08/15/05 8:59 AM >>> Yes, we do need a clearing house for information on "fakes, forgeries, facsimiles" and I hope someone can coordinate it. No, I am afraid the local historical society is consuming my life right now so I can't do it. We get into the sticky area of intent dealing with the first two and things aren't quite as straightforward as might appear. A forgery is, simplistically, a copy of an actual map pretending to be the original; a fake is a map pretending to be something it is not (a newly discovered early map actually made last week, for instance); a facsimile is an acknowledged copy of an original map. A facsimile, made with no intention to deceive, can be confused with an original by people who have limited experience with maps, but there is no original criminal intent. Maybe the Library of Congress should bring that old list of facsimile producers up to date. Most of the maps in AN ATLAS OF FANTASY are, strictly, fakes, but they were never made to deceive. I suggest we limit what is sent to any clearinghouse to those maps created pretending to be what they are not with the intent to deceive. Perhaps if a particular well-made facsimile has been causing confusion, it might be mentioned in passing. While it has nothing to do with fakes & forgeries, I still want to pass on an experience I once had with a photostat of a map. A woman came to the Free Library of Philadelphia's Map Collection waving a photocopy of a map she had made claiming it proved her house was built in Colonial times, a claim others were disputing. Yes, there was a mark at the spot we determined with later maps was exactly her house. To protect the originals, photostats had been made of many early Philadelphia maps and these were used, most people really didn't need to touch the originals. I first suggested that, as happened with a friend of mine, the original house was damaged (fire, insects, neglect) and was replaced using the still intact foundation from an earlier time. We finally went to the original and, lo, no indication of any building. In the process of phostating the original, a speck of something ended up at the exact spot on the map indicating where her house would later stand. No intent to deceive here, just bad luck. JBP _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 2eKwMOrztJI3TYXd/wnwGsOU3nqKTTN1l6Hilrk/YSSvybOl5b7vdA== X-Originating-IP: [4.243.155.127] From: "Philip Hoehn" Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:53:50 GMT To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Donald Shively (1921-2005) X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 X-ContentStamp: 2:1:347604143 X-MAIL-INFO:1cc888dcc8b5f8c9c1c988891d28adf591283d3599d1ed15eda85c9c05285c8cbca9dc55ad8871dc9548d9fcd961888cbd8d6d1d4100412cbd4149f97178d5e5a5c5e8190d9cfc08d5086c2935ec4508 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.131.27.143|webmail03.lax.untd.com|outbound29-sr.lax.untd.com|philhoehn@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.54 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.267, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_JUNO_RCVD=0.792] X-Spam-Level: Donald Shively, former head of the East Asian Library at the University of California, Berkeley died on August 13, 2005. Readers may recall that he initiated and directed a preservation and cataloging project for the library's large collection of early Japanese language maps. Further details of his life and distinguished academic career appear in an obituary by Meredith May "Donald H. Shively--Scholar on Japan" in the San Francisco Chronicle, Aug. 15, p. B2. An online version is at: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/08/15/BAGDHE7UQP1.DTL Philip Hoehn, Map Librarian San Francisco -- philhoehn@juno.com ----------------------------------- Contractor for David Rumsey Collection: http://www.davidrumsey.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] A new webpage on the issues arising out of the Smiley affair Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:34:17 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.576 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.023, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: There have been a number of thoughtful comments arising out of my attempt to identify the important issues that need considering in the light of the Forbes Smiley affair. I shall certainly not comment on them all here, and those suggestions about library security will be for the rare book librarians and/or their security officers to pick up on if they want to. It has been heartening to get such clear statements about the ethical position of the responsible members of the trade [i.e. the overwhelming majority]. Particularly as they are the ones most likely to suffer financial loss, through no fault of their own. And, likewise, it was good to hear such a cogent restatement of the need for full disclosure by the institutions affected by map thefts. On this issue, at least, there are no policy disagreements on MapHist. However, what seems not to have created much interest are my suggestions for dealing with a problem of which I have been personally aware for decades (as, I am sure, have many others): namely, the fact that many of the most commercially valuable maps are held in rare book libraries and curated by people, who, for thorougly understandable reasons (after all, they are not map specialists) are unaware they are there. The specialist thief, of course, knows exactly where they are. Result? A very uneven contest, leading to regular, and inevitable, periods of angst when libraries discover that an important book has lost its map. In an attempt to take this further, I have written a new webpage 'Issues arising out of the Forbes Smiley affair' < http://www.maphistory.info/smiley.html >. This is an opinion piece - even a campaigning one - and I invite your comments and corrections. It builds on a similar page that went up in 2002, in the wake of the European thefts, most of which remains fully relevant. I am calling it a 'provisional' version. Once MapHist has had its say, and I have made the necessary adjustments, I shall publicise it to other map lists, as well as to the rare books (ExLibris), map trade and library security lists. The wide interest that has been generated provides an opportunity for action. It is essential that we take this. To give a small flavour of what I am saying, here is an extract from the Summary: "What Smiley is reported to have done has very likely happened before, without anybody being aware. Unless this material can be identified and given appropriate security, it will certainly happen again - prompted in part by the present publicity. The comments below outline a realisable programme to provide the rare book curators with bibliographic aids appropriate for the sad realities of today's world. There are three suggested stages. First, a researcher is hired to identify the vulnerable volumes (i.e. those containing desirable maps, especially of North America or the world as a whole, and of sufficient commercial value); second the resulting list is matched against existing union catalogues of library holdings; and third a census is carried out of such volumes, to determine if the map(s) remain in them. Because of this exercise, the libraries involved will be forewarned about those volumes that need an unusually high level of security and invigilation. If such an inventory is then published on the web, it would alert any potential thief (who would probably already have the basic information anyway) that, now, the librarians were prepared for him. Once the excitement over this case dies down, if we decide collectively to do nothing effective, I can guarantee that the existing and 'silent' pillaging of maps from rare books will continue, almost certainly at a rate that grows in line with increased market value. Rare books librarians, this is your call. Map specialists would certainly be ready to assist. But if you do no more than wring your hands over the present disaster you could reasonably be held responsible for the next." It would be good to be reassured that the FBI are taking advice from the appropriate map specialist(s). Incidentally, I think is would be wise if we did not publicise on MapHist the names of the relevant carto-bibliographies (although the potential thief is probably aware of them already). Please do not forget that the 'Theft Links' page < http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html > contains a large number of systematically organised links covering the issue of map (and book) thefts in all their aspects. As always, I invite additions. I continue to seek out, on a daily basis, further press coverage of the case < http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html#lit >, although I suspect it will go quiet now until the trial in October - unless there are any other major revelations. Please let me know of anything I have missed. Thank you. Tony Campbell ****************************************** t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://www.maphistory.info/ [part of the WWW-Virtual Library] ****************************************** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 14/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:00:39 -0400 From: "Edward James Redmond" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] A new webpage on the issues arising out of the Smiley affair X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Once again, Tony Campbell deserves the thanks of a grateful MapHist for his continued contributions in addressing this serious issue. Ed R. Ed Redmond Geography & Map Reference Specialist Geography and Map Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave, SE Washington, DC 20540-4650 (202) 707-8548 ered@loc.gov >>> t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk 08/15/05 3:34 PM >>> There have been a number of thoughtful comments arising out of my attempt to identify the important issues that need considering in the light of the Forbes Smiley affair. I shall certainly not comment on them all here, and those suggestions about library security will be for the rare book librarians and/or their security officers to pick up on if they want to. It has been heartening to get such clear statements about the ethical position of the responsible members of the trade [i.e. the overwhelming majority]. Particularly as they are the ones most likely to suffer financial loss, through no fault of their own. And, likewise, it was good to hear such a cogent restatement of the need for full disclosure by the institutions affected by map thefts. On this issue, at least, there are no policy disagreements on MapHist. However, what seems not to have created much interest are my suggestions for dealing with a problem of which I have been personally aware for decades (as, I am sure, have many others): namely, the fact that many of the most commercially valuable maps are held in rare book libraries and curated by people, who, for thorougly understandable reasons (after all, they are not map specialists) are unaware they are there. The specialist thief, of course, knows exactly where they are. Result? A very uneven contest, leading to regular, and inevitable, periods of angst when libraries discover that an important book has lost its map. In an attempt to take this further, I have written a new webpage 'Issues arising out of the Forbes Smiley affair' < http://www.maphistory.info/smiley.html >. This is an opinion piece - even a campaigning one - and I invite your comments and corrections. It builds on a similar page that went up in 2002, in the wake of the European thefts, most of which remains fully relevant. I am calling it a 'provisional' version. Once MapHist has had its say, and I have made the necessary adjustments, I shall publicise it to other map lists, as well as to the rare books (ExLibris), map trade and library security lists. The wide interest that has been generated provides an opportunity for action. It is essential that we take this. To give a small flavour of what I am saying, here is an extract from the Summary: "What Smiley is reported to have done has very likely happened before, without anybody being aware. Unless this material can be identified and given appropriate security, it will certainly happen again - prompted in part by the present publicity. The comments below outline a realisable programme to provide the rare book curators with bibliographic aids appropriate for the sad realities of today's world. There are three suggested stages. First, a researcher is hired to identify the vulnerable volumes (i.e. those containing desirable maps, especially of North America or the world as a whole, and of sufficient commercial value); second the resulting list is matched against existing union catalogues of library holdings; and third a census is carried out of such volumes, to determine if the map(s) remain in them. Because of this exercise, the libraries involved will be forewarned about those volumes that need an unusually high level of security and invigilation. If such an inventory is then published on the web, it would alert any potential thief (who would probably already have the basic information anyway) that, now, the librarians were prepared for him. Once the excitement over this case dies down, if we decide collectively to do nothing effective, I can guarantee that the existing and 'silent' pillaging of maps from rare books will continue, almost certainly at a rate that grows in line with increased market value. Rare books librarians, this is your call. Map specialists would certainly be ready to assist. But if you do no more than wring your hands over the present disaster you could reasonably be held responsible for the next." It would be good to be reassured that the FBI are taking advice from the appropriate map specialist(s). Incidentally, I think is would be wise if we did not publicise on MapHist the names of the relevant carto-bibliographies (although the potential thief is probably aware of them already). Please do not forget that the 'Theft Links' page < http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html > contains a large number of systematically organised links covering the issue of map (and book) thefts in all their aspects. As always, I invite additions. I continue to seek out, on a daily basis, further press coverage of the case < http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html#lit >, although I suspect it will go quiet now until the trial in October - unless there are any other major revelations. Please let me know of anything I have missed. Thank you. Tony Campbell ****************************************** t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://www.maphistory.info/ [part of the WWW-Virtual Library] ****************************************** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 14/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:27:54 EDT Subject: Re: [MapHist] What is this model of Japan? To: t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk, maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 208 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.679 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.648, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_20_30=0.226, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level:
Tony & others,

Thank you for that very precise information. I was quite impressed by the gorgeous execution of the piece, even if it's a forgery or a fake (see recent list comments for definitions), but the model for Japan looked so completely alien as to leave me bewildered. In my own ineffectual efforts to figure out where the representation came from I ran across some reproductions of William Hack's maps (also of the Thames School) and found some suspiciously similar toponyms but also stylistic differences that convinced me I was on the wrong track. Perhaps not so wrong after all, but I'm still wondering about that Japan! I'm not finding any reproductions of Daniell's Asian charts...

Regards,
daan Strebe

In a message dated 8/13/05 03:26:56, t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk writes:

It is clearly a 17th century Thames School chart. Thomas R. Smith listed
five known charts of the 'China Sea and Pacific' [p.99 in The Compleat
Plattmaker, ed. Norman Thrower, 1978]. Three of those were by John Daniell,
1636-1639, another attributed to Daniell, and the last by his former
apprentice Nicholas Comberford, 1665.

It was originally on a pair of boards, hinged down the middle. The hinge
holes can be seen, as also the water-staining that indicates its shipboard
use.

If it is an original, rather than a photographic copy, it is of considerable
interest - and certainly a bargain at $303!

Tony Campbell

t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: <Strebe@aol.com>
To: <maphist@geog.uu.nl>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 9:58 PM
Subject: [MapHist] What is this model of Japan?

>
> Colleagues,
>
> I have been puzzling over this since I ran across it:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7340998641&rd=1&
> sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
>
> Leaving aside the question of just what the item might be, I don't
recognize
> the model of Japan, but I'm not deeply acquainted with c. 1600
> representations. Does it look familiar to anyone?
>
> Regards,
> daan Strebe
>

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_______________________________________________________________
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List Information: http://www.maphist.info

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] Latest newspaper article on Smiley case Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:21:46 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.577 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: The latest newspaper coverage of the Smiley case, see < http://www.maphistory.info/theftlinks.html#lit >, includes: 'Valuable maps too easily stolen from books, libraries' (Lillian Thomas in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 14 August 2005) < http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05226/553813.stm > Tony Campbell ****************************************** t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://www.maphistory.info/ [part of the WWW-Virtual Library] ****************************************** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 15/08/2005 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] FW: MAPS-L: Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth, and XVIIth, centuries Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:19:53 +0100 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: MAPS-L: Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth, and XVIIth, centuries Thread-Index: AcWhlzxHiIEtt0ruQaGNt5A4GFTZeQBp4q2A From: "Francis Herbert" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.886 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.462, BAYES_00=-2.599, SUBJ_HAS_SPACES=1.175] X-Spam-Level: I forward this to 'MapHist' in order that our Dutch colleagues can either immediately supply what Brendan Whyte seeks - or will drop everything else and compile such a list. Yours (in hiding), Francis Herbert f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections' - including some online catalogues (e.g., many maps up to ca 1940)] http://images.rgs.org/ -----Original Message----- From: Maps, Air Photo & Geospatial Systems Forum [mailto:MAPS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Angie Cope, AGSL Sent: 15 August 2005 13:48 To: MAPS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: MAPS-L: Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth, and XVIIth, centuries ================================================ MAPS-L ** MAPS-L ** MAPS-L ** MAPS-L ** MAPS-L ================================================ Subject: Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth, and XVIIth, centuries Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 From: Brendan Whyte To: MAPS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Muller, F., Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth and XVIIth centuries. - 6 vols. - Amsterdam : Rudolf Muller, 1894-97. Is anyone able to supply me with a list of the maps included with this set of facsimile maps? We have an unnumbered, loose collection of sheets from this set that I would like to better catalogue it and to check if our holdings are complete. The sheets are individually titled "Reproductions of geographical maps". Does anyone know of any articles written about this set or have further information? I understand that 100 numbered sets were produced, yet ours is unnumbered. Does anyone know of a listing as to who holds which of the 100 sets? Dr Brendan Whyte Assistant Map Curator ERC Library University of Melbourne Vic 3010 AUSTRALIA bwhyte@unimelb.edu.au -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] FW: MAPS-L: Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth, and XVIIth, centuries Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:13:48 +1000 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] FW: MAPS-L: Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth, and XVIIth, centuries Thread-Index: AcWhlzxHiIEtt0ruQaGNt5A4GFTZeQBp4q2AABCeprA= From: "Maura O'Connor" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.966 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.542, BAYES_00=-2.599, SUBJ_HAS_SPACES=1.175] X-Spam-Level: Dear Francis and others I have now worked through our copy and provided Brendan with a list! Thanks Maura -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Francis Herbert Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2005 1:20 AM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] FW: MAPS-L: Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth, and XVIIth, centuries I forward this to 'MapHist' in order that our Dutch colleagues can either immediately supply what Brendan Whyte seeks - or will drop everything else and compile such a list. Yours (in hiding), Francis Herbert f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections' - including some online catalogues (e.g., many maps up to ca 1940)] http://images.rgs.org/ -----Original Message----- From: Maps, Air Photo & Geospatial Systems Forum [mailto:MAPS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Angie Cope, AGSL Sent: 15 August 2005 13:48 To: MAPS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: MAPS-L: Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth, and XVIIth, centuries ================================================ MAPS-L ** MAPS-L ** MAPS-L ** MAPS-L ** MAPS-L ================================================ Subject: Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth, and XVIIth, centuries Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 From: Brendan Whyte To: MAPS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Muller, F., Remarkable maps of the XVth, XVIth and XVIIth centuries. - 6 vols. - Amsterdam : Rudolf Muller, 1894-97. Is anyone able to supply me with a list of the maps included with this set of facsimile maps? We have an unnumbered, loose collection of sheets from this set that I would like to better catalogue it and to check if our holdings are complete. The sheets are individually titled "Reproductions of geographical maps". Does anyone know of any articles written about this set or have further information? I understand that 100 numbered sets were produced, yet ours is unnumbered. Does anyone know of a listing as to who holds which of the 100 sets? Dr Brendan Whyte Assistant Map Curator ERC Library University of Melbourne Vic 3010 AUSTRALIA bwhyte@unimelb.edu.au -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=pTspppeR3GLArCpQB3BUpkqchruExJQyJUN4ARj4CT4R5oV+7X/vN2eiuVuE4ARy; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Dorothy Sloan" To: Subject: [MapHist] Smiley arrest warrant Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:17:33 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: f33403415f50180b84b095f4ad0a658b3394c2b657dba48e74bf435c0eb9d47838e41faa7aa56b4ae6034601c884418b7976a6da76f45b3c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.142.83.101 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.583 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: See: http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/exlibris/2005/08/msg00188.html _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:25:22 EDT Subject: Re: [MapHist] Smiley arrest warrant To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5201 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.035 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=1.783, BAYES_20=-1.951, HTML_50_60=0.087, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039, NO_REAL_NAME=0.007, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Level:

Dorothy,

Stolen rare maps in Smileyâ€™s briefcase? Arrest warrant issued? Geeee – then what am I to think about the unusual non-conforming (with the rest of the maps) and strikingly colored large folding map of the United States and Mexico by Tanner that I have in the middle of my simple Smiley school atlas? How did it get there? Are the cops looking for me? Where can I hide??? Ooohhh, thank God – itââ€™s a different Smiley – Thomas Smiley – the school academy owner from Philadelphia who died in 1879, his atlas dated 1830. What a relief - I don't have to depart quickly & secretly on the first plane to South America, but can spend my next weekend relaxing – where else – at the Smiley Brothers Mohonk Mountantain House Preserve in the Shawangunks – the mecca of East Coast rock-climbers!!! But just in case, to be on the safe side - I shamelessly proclaim that I will have the atlas with this splendid Tanner map find a new owner – at the auction of mmy maps & atlases at Swann Galleries on December 8.

Mark

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.4.4011 Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:25:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Smiley arrest warrant From: Helen Glazer To: Maphist X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.56 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.039] X-Spam-Level: On 8/18/05 10:17 AM, "Dorothy Sloan" wrote: > http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/exlibris/2005/08/msg00188. > html Smiley's arrest warrant, with the first person account by the arresting officer. Pretty pathetic. --Helen ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø Helen Glazer, Creative Director George Glazer Gallery http://www.georgeglazer.com Antique Globes, Maps & Prints ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ø _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:18:02 +0200 From: Wolfgang Lierz User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: de-DE, de, en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: webmaster@ichc2007.ch Subject: [MapHist] From Budapest to Berne: ICHC2007 website X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2005 12:18:02.0791 (UTC) FILETIME=[8AFBEB70:01C5A713] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Dear all, one month ago at the end of the wonderful ICHC2005 at Budapest, we had the pleasure to invite you all to the next, the 22nd International Conference on the History of Cartography, which will be held in Berne, Switzerland, July 8-13, 2007. Please find all further information on our website: http://www.ichc2007.ch/ and use the contact form there to register your e-mail address so we can supply you with updated information from time to time. Best regards Wolfgang Lierz webmaster@ichc2007.ch _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Richard & Dorothy Fitch Subject: [MapHist] Re: Map Forum Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:36:10 -0600 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.344 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.255, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Has anyone had any difficulty subscribing to, or receiving, the printed version of Map Forum, specifically Issues 5 and 6? > Richard Fitch oldmaps@comcast.net _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Re: Map Forum Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:12:50 +0100 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Re: Map Forum Thread-Index: AcWnpJrEjQoDKzUwSEijMng9nWlwfgAFYWHQ From: "Francis Herbert" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.467 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.132, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Have you enquired of 'MapForum' as to specific problems, one must ask oneself? The Editor, I feel sure, would be most anxious to resolve any difficulties should they be within his power - offlist. Francis Herbert f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'] -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Richard & Dorothy Fitch Sent: 23 August 2005 06:36 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Re: Map Forum Has anyone had any difficulty subscribing to, or receiving, the printed version of Map Forum, specifically Issues 5 and 6? > Richard Fitch oldmaps@comcast.net _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Ashley Baynton-Williams" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Re: Map Forum Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:15:27 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.848 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.752, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: To clarify Dick and Dottie's enquiry, they subscribed to MapForum from issue 5. We sent them issue 5 in the bulk mailing of that issue; it failed to arrive. They told us. We sent them issue 5 and 6 in the bulk mailing of that issue; they failed to arrive. They were in touch with us on 10th August to tell us they still had nothing. I told them issue 7 is in final proof stage, and will go out to them with replacements of issues 5 and 6. Personally, I think there is a postman in New Mexico who likes old maps. I am aware of individual problems with deliveries; one of our board got only one of two copies of issue 5; people in the UK, Alaska (hi Dee), Toronto, California and India have also contacted me, and they have had or will get replacements in the next mailing. As a rule, new subscriptions and replacements are consolidated into the next shipment. By regular mail, posting four issues to the US is equivalent to half the subscription price - roll on competition. We met with the mailing house last week, and raised the matter with them; they are keen to be notified of missing copies. Unfortunately there seems to be no pattern, but mainland North America (40% of the mailing) accounts for 90% of lost packages. I'm sure that MapHisters don't want their inboxes cluttered with emails detailing non-delivery; if people contact me directly, I'll happily send replacements, and forward on emails to the mailing house, who have undertaken to contact subscribers direct. Short of hand-delivering copies, all we can do is undertake to replace copies that don't arrive, and apologise for the inconvenience. Ashley Baynton-Williams Editor, MapForum subs@mapforum.com editor@mapforum.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J. B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Mapping article citation Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:45:29 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.263 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.314, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_30_40=0.021, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level:

The citation which follows is for Nick to include in a future IMAGO MUNDI bibliography.

Amsterdam, Andrew H. "Mapping the Main Line." TREDYFFRIN EASTTOWN HISTORY QUARTERLY Summer 2005, vol.42 No.3 pp.82-93. While it is primarily about what Franklin Survey did, earlier mapping is also discussed. The Main Line is the area along the Pennsylvania Railroad tracks in the western suburbs of Philadelphia, PA (USA).

I can't imagine anyone outside southeastern Pennsylvania being interested in the subject, but a few copies will be available for public sale after distribution to the membership of the Tredyffrin Easttown Historical Society (founded 1936 as the Tredyffrin Easttown History Club). Publication costs $5.00 a copy with a $2.00 US domestic mailing & handling fee: I have no idea what comparable foreign mailing rates would be. Other articles concern the local Vassar Show Houses (supporters of Vassar College have local houses of historic import "rehabed" then sell tickets to see the finished product, profits to a scholarship fund) and the first part of a series on local quarries. An alternative is requesting a photocopy "offprint" of the relevant pages; 12 pages of the article, the cover, the table of contents, and the editor's comments on maps for $2.00 the photocopy and $2.00 postage & handling. I apologize for this commercial message and actually hope not too many request either the issue or the photocopy. For those who really want it, I also have to apologize and note that the Society isn't equiped to send invoices at the present time and we ask for check or money order. Address for orders or information is Tredyffrin Easttown History Quarterly; 244 Vincent Rd.; Paoli, PA 19301; USA.

In previous years, no copy was sent to the Library of Congress for copyright, a practice which may change shortly, though local historical societies and libraries were sent copies.

J. B. Post

Vice President for Program Planning, Tredyffrin Easttown Historical Society

Treasurer, Tredyffrin Easttown Historical Society

Distribution Manager, TREDYFFRIN EASTTOWN HISTORY QUARTERLY

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J. B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Survey of India Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:23:43 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.226 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.285, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.087, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level:

We all know that the maps produced by the various surveys - topographic, geologic, ethnographic, etc. - for the Indian Empire were primarily for imperial administrative purposes and only secondarily for "pure knowledge." At the moment, I am reading Laurie King's THE GAME, a Sherlock Holmes pastiche set in India. It is asserted that the Survey of India was the umbrella organization for domestic and border surveilance/intelligence. Can anyone confirm this?

JBP

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "matt champion" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Survey of India Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:20:27 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.611 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=1.900, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.087, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level:

JBP wrote ‘It is asserted that the Survey of India was the umbrella organization for domestic and border surveillance/intelligence. Can anyone confirm this? ‘. It is often assumed so. It is generally regarded that the birth of modern British military intelligence occurred during the early Napoleonic wars, in particular the Peninsular campaign, where Wellington employed ‘exploring officers’. These men’s mission was to travel behind enemy lines, often in full uniform, and gather information on troop movements etc. Whilst doing this they were also expected to be able to survey the countryside – an invaluable task in an area where few reliable maps were available. Few survived the campaign. As an aside, I had in my possession until recently two notebooks from British officers who served in the peninsular and, despite one being a Staff officer and the other commanding an elite Portuguese rifle regiment, what becomes immediately apparent is that neither of them ever really had a clue as to their exact location.

By the 1840s and 50s the British in India were using the same type of men, attached to either the general staff or engineers, as ‘political’ officers. Their job was information gathering but to what extent they posed as conducting military surveys is not obviously available. As the gathering of local political knowledge was very much the responsibility of the senior officer in the area, whilst more specific tasks were carried out by men appointed from London, it is probable that officers from all departments could find themselves undertaking political tasks – and surveyors would be in a prime situation to carry out such work. . However, it’s worth bearing in mind that when Lord Burleigh was presented with the fruits of Christopher Saxton’s work in the late 16^th century one of the first things he used them for was to plot the relative location of recusant Catholic families.

Matt Champion

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of J. B. Post
Sent: 24 August 2005 02:24
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Survey of India

JBP

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Alexey Postnikov Subject: Re: [MapHist] Survey of India Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:37:40 +0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.596 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Dear Arial

JBP,

With all my respect for you, it seems for me that yours is a little bit simplistic point of view. There is an ocean of literature on the history of the Grate Game and geographical explorations connected with this geopolitical struggle between Russian and British Empires for supremacy in the Central Asia, my books on the matter being a small drop in this ocean (TimesPostnikov A.V. Skhvatka na “Kryshe Mira”: politiki, razvedchiki i geografy v bor’be za Pamir v XIX veke.[New enlarged and improved edition] (Moscow: “OOO ID RIPOL klassik, 2005), 512 p.,ill. Postnikov A.V. Skhvatka na “Kryshe Mira”: politiki, razvedchiki i geografy v bor’be za Pamir v XIX veke (monografiya v dokumentakh). (Moscow: “Pamyatniki istoricheskoy mysli, 2001), 416 p., 8 sheets of maps.) Just for those who would like to begin a serious study of the topic I would like to recommend the following titles: Latinskij0251,0251,0251Edney, Matthew H. LatinskijMapping an empire : the geographical construction of British India, 1765Lucida Grande-Latinskij1843. Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1997. xv, 458 p. : ill., maps ; 24 cm. PalatinoAlder, Carry J. British India’s northern frontier, 1865-1985. A study in Imperial Policy. Imperial Studies no. 25, Royal Commonwealth Society. (London: Longmans, 1963). Alder, Carry J. “Britain and the defence of India - the origins of the problem, 1798-1815.” Journal of Asian History, 6/1, (1972): 14-44. Alder, Garry J. Beyond Bokhara. The Life of William Moorcroft. (London, 1985). Alder, L., and Dalby, R., The Dervish of Windsor Castle. The Life of Arminius Vambery. (London, 1979). Clubb, Oliver Edmund. China and Russia: The “Great Game.” (New York: Columbia University Press, 1971). Hopkirk, Peter, The Great Game: On the Secret Service in high Asia. (London, 1990). Hopkirk, Peter, Trespassers on the Roof of the World. The Race for Lhasa. (London, 1982). PalatinoLattimore, Owen. High Tartary. (London, 1940). 2nd ed. (New york: AMS Press, 1975). Lattimore, Owen. Inner Asian Frontiers of China, American Geographical Society. Research Series no. 21. (New York: Americal Geographical Society, 1940). Lattimore, Owen. Pivot of Asia: Sinkiang and the Inner Asian Frontiers of China and Russia. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1950). Lattimore, Owen. Studies in Frontier History. Collected Papers, 1928-1959. (Paris, 1962). LeDonne, John P. The Russian Empire and the World, 1700-1917: The Geopolitics of Expansion and Containment. (New York, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997). Meyer, Karl E. & Brysac, Shareen Blair. Tournament of Shadows: The Great Game and the Race for Empire in Central Asia. (Counterpoint Washington, D.C.: A Cornelia and Michael Bessie Book, 1999). Morgan, Gerald. Ney Elias. Explorer and Envoy Extraordinary. (London, 1971). Morgan, Gerald. “Myth and Reality in the Great Game”, Asian Affairs, 60 (1973). Morgan, Gerald. Anglo-Russian Rivalry in Central Asia: 1810-1895. (London: Frank Cass, 1981) Paine, S. Imperial Rivals: Russia, China and Their Disputed Frontier 1858-1924. (New York, 1996). Postnikov, Alexei. “Cartography and Boundary-Making on the Pamir (Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries).” Terrae Incognitae. Volume 30, (1998): 72-93. Prescott, J.R.V. Map of Mainland Asia by Treaty. (Melbourne: Melbourne University Press, 1975). Quested, R.K.I. The Expansion of Russia in East Asia. 1857-1860. (Kuala Lumpur: University of Malaya Press, 1968). Quested, R.K.I. Sino-Russian Relations: A Short History. (Sydney: George Allen & Unwin, 1984). With best regards, AVP Alexey V. Postnikov (Professor, Doctor of Science) Assessor International Union of the History of Science and Technology Chairman ICA Commission on the History of Cartography The Honorable Scientist of the Russian Federation Corresponding member International Academy of the History of Science (Paris) European Academy of Sciences (Brussels) Director Russian Academy of Sciences' Institute of the History of Science and Technology 1/5 Staropansky St. Moscow 109012 Russia Phone: (7-095)-925-70-03 (office) Fax: (7-095)-925-99-11 E-mail: apostnik@ihst.ru On Aug 24, 2005, at 5:23 AM, J. B. Post wrote: Arial

Arial

JBP

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:28:01 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, discovery@listserver.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: [MapHist] Maps of the Royal Thai Court X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.496 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: (I am not sure if this comes through well, but I have a scan of the newspaper article. and can post it somewhere people can see it) Thai maps reveal past war and trade routes By Subhafra Bhumiprabhas The Nation, Thailand BANGKOK - A series of his¬toric maps which show the war and trade routes of Siamese kings in the 19th century have been uncovered after languish¬ing in the palace apartments for two centuries hidden away. It is not known exactly how long the 17 hand-drawn, hand¬colored cotton map rolls have been kept at the Grand Palace in the mansion of Princess Abbhantri Paja (1889-1935), a daughter of King Rama V, but Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn discovered them in the Grand Palace's inner royal court in 1996. The princess requested the Royal Thai Survey Department to copy them, a task that took two years. Then she passed on the task of trac¬ing the history of the maps to Santanee Phasuk, a senior teacher at Chitrlada School. The princess sponsored Santanee's doctoral research on the maps at the School of Oriental and Mrican Studies at London University. "Her Highness gave me three questions: who drew the maps, why they were drawn and when they were drawn," Santanee said. After spending years study¬ing, surveying places marked on some of the maps and reading royal chronicles, Santanee in¬cluded the possible answers in her Ph.D. thesis, extracts of which are included in the book• "Royal Siamese Maps: War and Trade in 19th-Century Thailand," published by River Books. The maps date from the reign of King Rama I to that of King Rama Iv. "I could study only nine maps," Santanee said, lament¬ing her limited time. In her foreword to the book, Princess Sirindhorn writes, "Dr. Santanee's research proves the existence of a hitherto unsus¬pected cartographic tradition in. Thailand. Not only are many of the maps beautiful works of art in their own right, but they also shed light on concerns faced by the early kings of the Chakri dy¬nasty, whether in defending their country or engaging in trade, in particular with Chinese." . Findings in Santanee's re¬search revealed evidence of King Rama I and King Rama Ill's campaign routes to neigh¬boring countries. She also found that King Rama I's cam¬paign route on the map of Muang Tavoy, one of the largest in the collection, was now sub¬merged in Watchiralonkorn Dam in Kanchanaburi province. A 19th-century painting on this map shows a battle be¬tween the Siamese and the d3unnese at Tavoy ..•. ~ Santanee found in the royal chronicles that the Siamese at¬tack on Thawai in 1787 had failed because of natural diffi¬culties along the route. She said the map of Muang Phrataphang had brought home to her how much the Siamese of the time hated the Yaun (Vietnamese). In designating a Khmer area, the ,map reads Khmer, but when designating a Yaun area it reads Khai [camp] Ai Yaun, she said. Ai, a strong abusive prefIx, is, she notes in the book, em¬ployed throughout this map in naming Vietnamese camps and villages. In stark contrast, it is never used of the Khmer. The cartog¬rapher is thus clearly either Siamese or Khmer, or at least working under Thai or Khmer auspices, she said. Another landmark in the col¬lection that Santanee discov¬ered during her study is Baan Huay Plu, a town on a historic campaign route now called Baan I-tong, a tourist attraction in Sankhaburi district in Kanchanaburi. In her study of the map of Muang Kwangtung, Santanee found villages of sea pirates with buildings in the Chinese style, including multistoreyed pagodas, gatehouses, battle¬ments and watchtowers. There was also a landmark named Thirteen Farang Hang, which Princess Sirindhorn said must date from before the Opium War, according to Santanee. Princess Sirindhorn is cur¬rently studying two trade and coastal maps of China in the col¬lection. The 17 Royal Siamese maps are now in her library in Bangkok. The collection includes: ~ Strategic and topographic maps of Muang Thalang, Muang Lakgon/Ko Markfrhalang-Sai, Muang Thawai, Muang Thawai/MotamalKaraburi Mai, Muang Phrataphang, Khmen Nai Ni, Southern Isaan and Khmer Isaan, and Muang UbonlPhnom Penh; - General topographic maps of Muang Nakhon Si Thammarat and of Phra Akkhanaesorn/Phraya Sangkhalok-Kot; - An ethnographic map of Angwa (Attapue); - Trade and coastal maps of China, Muang Kwangtung and Muang Nakhon Si Thammarat; - A military plan of Muang Saiburi. Most are reproduced in the book, and five will be exhibited at the Jim Thompson Thai House from January to March next year. Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index.htm Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Survey of India Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:34:03 +0100 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Survey of India thread-index: AcWoSKzcZUFA96YdQmiC7uyj8JxETQATEdiQ From: "Cook, Andrew" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.584 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_30_40=0.021, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level: Message

Not so much domestic (what we would now call 'insurgency' was handled by Government of India Home Department, and used standard published Survey of India mapping), but definitely for frontier work. General Staff India maintained a map compilation section within Survey of India, largely for the production of confidential mapping from what was generally called 'Trans-Frontier' intelligence, much arising out of military operations and reconnaissance. Prostrating pundits with prayer-wheels were only one of a number of sources. All GSI maps were SI productions, but only latterly given SI imprints. The various series of Trans-Frontier maps, usually at 8-mile scale and larger, which were developed from the 1870s, were intelligence compilations by SI for GSI. The staffing and distribution of duties among the various M.O. sections of Governemt of India Military Intelligence are discernible from the annual printed Indian Army List, and from confidential reports of the 1880s onwards establishing and extending military topographical intelligence collection, analysis and dissemination. The organisation had much in common with that of IDWO/GSGS in UK. The large collections of 1850-1940 GSI route-books, gazetteers and reports in India Office Records would confirm the author's general assertion. Many of these works have been used by authors of the works Alexei Postnikov lists so comprehensively.

Andrew Cook

Andrew S Cook MA PhD FRHistS
Map Archivist, India Office Records
The British Library
96 Euston Road
London NW1 2DB
+44 20 7412 7828

JBP

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X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J. B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Thanks for information Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:33:04 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.158 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.746, BAYES_05=-0.413, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level:

Many thanks to those responding to my question on the Survey of India. I am aware of many of the works cited, but can't access them quickly from my present location. Quick answers from experts are a virtue of <MapHist>.

JBP

Hello,

If you read the correspondance of Warren Hasting's from the 1770's which is preserved in the British Library there are quite a few references to the establishment of surveying undertakings in India. Whilst looking for other things I have found several letters for instance complaining about the quality the lens sent from Britain by the EIC for surveying instruments.

George Bogle's letters from the Himalaya's in this correspondance also includes information which would be useful to an army over routes etc.

There are also fascinating letters from Colonel Goddard who in the 1770's led an epic and almost unknown nowadays, expedition to march an army from Bengal to Bombay to rescue the Bombay Presidency, which had lost its army in a serious defeat. Due to the season they could not sail around in the face of the monsoon, and speed of reinforcement of the essence.

There is a fascinating route list with all the towns and the distances between each set out. The central third of the journey was across territories hitherto almost total unknown and not previously crossed by the British.

Officer's like my 3 x great grandfather Captain James Barton of the Bombay Artillery in the Mahratta Wars between 1817 and 1821 were trained to sketch as they went. 12 lithographs of his work survive in the British Library. These drawings by officers were combined with maps in works like Valentine Blacker's account of those wars.

You are correct in suggesting that many times the army had no idea where it was. Another of my forebears, a Political Resident in 1827 near Kolarpoor had to call out the army from Belgaum in the face of a rebellion. Colonel Pollock refused to set out because he did not have a map or know how many rivers he had to cross. He did not know were to get boats. They reply he got from Thomas Baber was quite ascerbic and pointed out to him in no uncertain terms the error of his ways, in having been commander of the area for a period and not having had maps prepared, so army units were obviously expected to make there own maps or route cards well in advance of the formal setting up of the Survey of India.

Modern Indian's in the 1980's were still very concerned at the presence of young Brits (me) in frontier areas, and beleived that I was looking far to hard at bridges and roads.

Being on the Hippy Trail was not considered a very convincing reason for my presence north of Simla.

There was still obviously a strong folk memory amongst Indian officials of the British useing geology, botany etc. as a cover for map making and intelligence work.

Regards

Nick Balmer

As an affiliate to Maphist I received a few months ago a message by you.

I wonder whether you are the same J. Lennart Berggren author of Ptolemy's Geography. An Annotated Translation of the Theretical Chapters, Princeton University Press, 2000.

With the best of wishes,

Vladimiro

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Vladimiro Valerio

Office:

Dipartimento di Storia della Architettura

San Polo 2468 - Palazzo Badoer

30125 Venezia

tel. + 39 041 2571418, fax 041 715449

e-mail vladimir@iuav.it

home:

Via R. Morghen, 88

80129 Napoli

tel. & fax +39 081 5568952

mobile 335 403807

WWWWWWWWW PER ASPERA AD ASTRA WWWWWWWWW

Il giorno 20/nov/04, alle ore 19:48, Len Berggren ha scritto:

Dear Nick,
I enjoyed meeting you and some of your colleagues at November's meetiing of the OSC. And the club deserves congratulations not only on the fine dinner and wines they served us but on the quality of their accomodations for visiting scholars, (And thanks again for facilitating that for me.)
I found OCS talk very interesting and wonder if you could give me the full name and institutional affiliation of your speaker.
Many thanks, and best wishes,
Len

_______________________________________________________________
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hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht.
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X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: vladimiro valerio Subject: Re: [MapHist] Ptolemy's Theoretical Chapters Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:46:26 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) X-IUAV-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-IUAV-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vladimir@iuav.it X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.519 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.079, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Level:

Sorry for posting to the list a private message!

Vladimiro

Il giorno 25/ago/05, alle ore 13:24, vladimiro valerio ha scritto:

Dear Len Berggren,
As an affiliate to Maphist I received a few months ago a message by you.
I wonder whether you are the same J. Lennart Berggren author of Ptolemy's Geography. An Annotated Translation of the Theretical Chapters, Princeton University Press, 2000.

With the best of wishes,

Vladimiro

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Vladimiro Valerio
Office:
Dipartimento di Storia della Architettura
San Polo 2468 - Palazzo Badoer
30125 Venezia
tel. + 39 041 2571418, fax 041 715449
e-mail vladimir@iuav.it

home:
Via R. Morghen, 88
80129 Napoli
tel. & fax +39 081 5568952
mobile 335 403807
WWWWWWWWW PER ASPERA AD ASTRA WWWWWWWWW

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Authentication-Info: The sender was authenticated as ovidiu using PLAIN at smtp.nada.kth.se Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:57:42 +0200 From: Ovidiu Sandor User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Looking for info on Austrian mapmaker X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 required=6.31 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Hello! I am looking for informatio about an Austrian mapmaker (probably part of the engineering corps of the Imperial army). The imprint on a map reads: "Joannes Weingartner Ingenieror & Geographus fecit Veina Ano 1738" More generally, I am looking for books/articles on Austrian mapmakers and mapmaking 1700 to 1780. Any suggestions? Many thanks, Ovidiu Sandor _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:35:34 -0700 From: Deborah Taylor-Pearce User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Survey of India & Petty's maps X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.455 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Nick, > Does Petty's map survive today? If > so where? Sorry, but I have no idea. Not being a trained cartographic historian, I haven't paid much attention to such matters in the past when I've been doing my research. (Needless to say, that has now changed! ;-) So I'll keep an eye out from now on for any further information on this front. But surely there was more than one set of originals? > Richard Jones, Viscount Ranelagh was a > thoroughly bad character, who spent his > entire life diverting funds from > government sources into his own pocket. I'm assuming that you are here referring to the third Viscount Ranelagh, nephew of Robert Boyle and son of Boyle's beloved sister, Katherine, a great friend of John Milton, whom she had tutor young Richard in Greek and Latin. I didn't know this about Jones, who has been described as "a spendthrift who succeeded in being expelled from the House of Commons (although his reputation rests more pleasantly with posterity, since he built Chelsea House and laid out Ranelagh Gardens)." Presumably, Irish rents paid for all this, and a great deal more, since the Boyle family had been profiting from their Irish properties for many years by then. > If any body knows were I can locate > more on Petty's maps and there use, > I would be fascinated. Petty's _Hiberniae delineatio quoad hactenus licuit, perfectissima studio Guilielmi Petty Eq: aurati_, issued "Cum Privilegio Regis," does not give a date or an engraver on its cover title (basically a table of contents). Nothing else is included in the portfolio, which consists of 2 leaves and 36 maps (some folded). I suspect that the maps included in Petty's _Hiberniae_ were also engraved by Lamb, but I haven't actually compared the 2 1685 titles, so I really don't know about this. I do know that Lamb claimed his 1685 _A Geographicall Description of ye Kingdom of Ireland_ was "Corrected & amended by the advice & assistance of severall able artists, late inhabitants of that kingdom." so one might expect there to be differences between the printed maps of 1685 and Petty's originals, as drawn up in the 1650s. I also know that the indefatigable Robert Hooke had a hand in the project. Lamb and Hooke worked closely together on several mapping projects in the 1670s. And there is mention of Hooke's copying some of Petty's work in a diary entry for 13 Oct. 1678: "... Coppy Sir W. Petty's Improvement of Ireland. Haak. Jonathans. I gave Dr. Wood Sir W. Petty's paper, he lent me Sir W. Petty's _Politicall Arithmetick_...." (Incidentally, Hooke here refers to the same Robert Wood who served as "Accountant General of Ireland" and ferried documents to Petty while in Ireland. I've been working on Robert Wood for several years now -- specifically, his design of a graphical almanac, or "hieroglyphick of the year"; there's a preview at if anyone's interested in knowing more about Robert Wood and his emblematical garter.) I've not had a chance to follow up on what exactly it was that Hooke copied of Petty's, so I'm afraid I can't give you any more details than this just yet. But as part of the Velasco Map project, I'm including a write-up on C17 map copy techniques (e.g., Hooke came up with one using *Icthnoceolla* which he demonstrated before the Royal Society in 1683). Of course, I have no idea how they were copying maps in 1610/11 England ... but that's a topic for another day.... Deborah _____ Deborah Taylor-Pearce dtp@she-philosopher.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Survey of India & Petty's maps Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:58:02 +1000 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Survey of India & Petty's maps Thread-Index: AcWp+lPNGeq7U8r9SJyp4DOv11gpZgAACx1A From: "Maura O'Connor" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.525 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.074, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Dear all concerned The British Library holds the Petty papers. I don't know what maps if any are either in that or perhaps located in the map collection. Someone else already has suggested you contact Peter Barber, the BL's Map curator on the subject. It may also be worth following up with the French Bibliotheque Nationale! Yours sincerely Maura O'Connor Map Curator National Library of Australia Canberra ACT 2600 Phone : 61 2 6262 1280 Fax: 61 2 6262 1653 Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Deborah Taylor-Pearce Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 2:36 PM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Survey of India & Petty's maps Nick, > Does Petty's map survive today? If > so where? Sorry, but I have no idea. Not being a trained cartographic historian, I haven't paid much attention to such matters in the past when I've been doing my research. (Needless to say, that has now changed! ;-) So I'll keep an eye out from now on for any further information on this front. But surely there was more than one set of originals? > Richard Jones, Viscount Ranelagh was a > thoroughly bad character, who spent his > entire life diverting funds from > government sources into his own pocket. I'm assuming that you are here referring to the third Viscount Ranelagh, nephew of Robert Boyle and son of Boyle's beloved sister, Katherine, a great friend of John Milton, whom she had tutor young Richard in Greek and Latin. I didn't know this about Jones, who has been described as "a spendthrift who succeeded in being expelled from the House of Commons (although his reputation rests more pleasantly with posterity, since he built Chelsea House and laid out Ranelagh Gardens)." Presumably, Irish rents paid for all this, and a great deal more, since the Boyle family had been profiting from their Irish properties for many years by then. > If any body knows were I can locate > more on Petty's maps and there use, > I would be fascinated. Petty's _Hiberniae delineatio quoad hactenus licuit, perfectissima studio Guilielmi Petty Eq: aurati_, issued "Cum Privilegio Regis," does not give a date or an engraver on its cover title (basically a table of contents). Nothing else is included in the portfolio, which consists of 2 leaves and 36 maps (some folded). I suspect that the maps included in Petty's _Hiberniae_ were also engraved by Lamb, but I haven't actually compared the 2 1685 titles, so I really don't know about this. I do know that Lamb claimed his 1685 _A Geographicall Description of ye Kingdom of Ireland_ was "Corrected & amended by the advice & assistance of severall able artists, late inhabitants of that kingdom." so one might expect there to be differences between the printed maps of 1685 and Petty's originals, as drawn up in the 1650s. I also know that the indefatigable Robert Hooke had a hand in the project. Lamb and Hooke worked closely together on several mapping projects in the 1670s. And there is mention of Hooke's copying some of Petty's work in a diary entry for 13 Oct. 1678: "... Coppy Sir W. Petty's Improvement of Ireland. Haak. Jonathans. I gave Dr. Wood Sir W. Petty's paper, he lent me Sir W. Petty's _Politicall Arithmetick_...." (Incidentally, Hooke here refers to the same Robert Wood who served as "Accountant General of Ireland" and ferried documents to Petty while in Ireland. I've been working on Robert Wood for several years now -- specifically, his design of a graphical almanac, or "hieroglyphick of the year"; there's a preview at if anyone's interested in knowing more about Robert Wood and his emblematical garter.) I've not had a chance to follow up on what exactly it was that Hooke copied of Petty's, so I'm afraid I can't give you any more details than this just yet. But as part of the Velasco Map project, I'm including a write-up on C17 map copy techniques (e.g., Hooke came up with one using *Icthnoceolla* which he demonstrated before the Royal Society in 1683). Of course, I have no idea how they were copying maps in 1610/11 England ... but that's a topic for another day.... Deborah _____ Deborah Taylor-Pearce dtp@she-philosopher.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Nicholas Balmer" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Survey of India & Petty's maps Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:27:37 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.074 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=1.525, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Hello Maura, Thank you very much for your kind suggestions. Regards Nick Balmer _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:38:22 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: Re: [MapHist] Looking for info on Austrian mapmaker X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.588 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Ovidiu A few titles to start with: Descriptio Austriae : Österreich und seine Nachbarn im Kartenbild von der Spätantike bis ins 19. Jahrhundert / Johannes Dörflinger, Robert Wagner [und] Franz Wawrik. Wien : Edition Tusch , 1977 Österreichische Kartographie : von den Anfängen im 15. Jahrhundert bis zum 21. Jahrhundert / Ingrid Kretschmer, Johannes Dörflinger und Franz Wawrik ; hrsg. von Ingrid Kretschmer und Karel Kriz. Wien : Institut für Geographie und Regionalforschung der Universität Wien, Kartographie und Geoinformation, 2004 (Wiener Schriften zur Geographie und Kartographie ; Bd. 15). Österreichische Atlanten 1561-1918 / Johannes Dörflinger und Helga Hühnel ; unter Mitarb. von Ludvik Mucha. Wien [etc.] : Böhlau Verlag , 1995 Die österreichische Kartographie im 18. und zu Beginn des 19. Jahrhunderts : unter besonderer Berücksichtigung der Privatkartographie zwischen 1780 und 1820 / [von] Johannes Dörflinger. Wien : Verlag der Akademie, 1984-1988 and last but not least Lexikon zur Geschichte der Kartographie : von den Anfängen bis zum Ersten Weltkrieg / Ingrid Kretschmer, Johannes Dörflinger und Franz Wawrik . Wien: Deuticke, 1986. Check further in the catalogues under the names Ingrid Kretschmer, Johannes Dörflinger and Franz Wawrik. Peter At 22:57 25-8-2005, you wrote: >Hello! > >I am looking for informatio about an Austrian >mapmaker (probably part of the engineering corps >of the Imperial army). The imprint on a map reads: >"Joannes Weingartner Ingenieror & Geographus fecit Veina Ano 1738" > >More generally, I am looking for books/articles >on Austrian mapmakers and mapmaking 1700 to 1780. Any suggestions? > >Many thanks, > Ovidiu Sandor > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geo-sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands e-mail: peter@vanderkrogt.net Homepage: MapHist: Genealogy: Elementymology: Columbus Monuments: YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:07:39 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: AW: [MapHist] Looking for info on Austrian mapmaker X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.235 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=2.364, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: Non-member submission from ["Fischer Karl" ] The most recent book to obtain a general view on the history of Austrian = mapmaking - and with al lot of literature - is: Ingrid Kretschmer, Johannes D=F6rflinger and Franz Wawrik, = =D6sterreichische Kartographie. Von den Anf=E4ngen im 15. Jahrhundert = bis zum 21. Jahrhundert, Wien, Institut f=FCr Geographie und = Regionalforschung der Universit=E4t Wien, 2004 (=3DWiener Schriften zur = Geographie und Kartographie vol. 15), ISBN 3-900830-51-7. Weingartner is not mentioned there, and I am not aware of any literature = about him. If he was an engineer at the imperial army You would have to = research at the=20 =D6sterreichisches Staatsarchiv - Kriegsarchiv, Nottendorfer Gasse 2, = A-1030 Wien: http://www.oesta.gv.at/ With best regards Karl Fischer -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] = Im Auftrag von Ovidiu Sandor *EXTERN* Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. August 2005 22:58 An: maphist@geog.uu.nl Betreff: [MapHist] Looking for info on Austrian mapmaker Hello! I am looking for informatio about an Austrian mapmaker (probably part of = the engineering corps of the Imperial army). The imprint on a map reads: "Joannes Weingartner Ingenieror & Geographus fecit Veina Ano 1738" More generally, I am looking for books/articles on Austrian mapmakers=20 and mapmaking 1700 to 1780. Any suggestions? Many thanks, Ovidiu Sandor _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Survey of India & Petty's maps Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:52:07 +0100 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Survey of India & Petty's maps Thread-Index: AcWp+k5SxEsUt+b+SwOEcBQcfIqcfgAG9PkQ From: "Francis Herbert" To: Cc: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.486 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.113, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Level: This may seem rather petty (any opportunity for a pun gladly taken up . . .), but a look at some of the relevant literature sources might prove useful. And these items themselves will have more references for further reading within them. The following I transcribe from entries in the 'Imago Mundi Bibliography':- Shapes of Ireland : maps and their makers 1564-1839 / J[ohn]. H. Andrews. - Templeogue, Dublin : Geography Publications, 1997. - ix,346p. : ill. ; 24 cm. - Discusses especially 'key' maps of G. Mercator (1564; with those of G. Lily & L. Nowell), B. Boazio (1599; with those of R. Lythe), J. Speed (1610), W. Petty (1685), H. Pratt (1708), T. Jefferys (1759), D.A. Beaufort (1792), A. Arrowsmith sr (1811; with those of C. Vallancey), & T. Larcom (1839; with those of W.C. Hobson, J. Wyld jr, R. Griffith, & Ordnance Survey). - Includes 'Appendix : the measurement of planimetric accuracy' / M. Stout & H. MacMahon (p.327-329). - ISBN 0-906602-95-5 ['IM Bibliogr.', 1998, vol. 50, entry no. 98:50(002)] Sir William Petty : a tercentenary reassessment / John H. Andrews. - In 'The Map Collector' (Tring, Herts), Winter [i.e. December] 1987, 41, 34-39 : ill., maps, portr. - ca 11 refs. - Portr. engraved by E. Sandys for t.p. of 'Hiberniae Delineatio' (Dublin, ca 1685). - Also notes connections with T. Taylor, W. Molyneux, and use of work by H. Moll etc. - ISSN 0141-427X ['IM Bibliogr.', 1989, vol. 41, entry no. 89:41(102)] Sir W[illiam] P[etty] of Romsey / P[eter]. G. Dale. - [Romsey, Hants :] Lower Test Valley Archaeological Study Group, 1987. - [iv],60p. : ill., map, portr. ; 21 cm + 'Errata' slip. - Includes ch. 3 'Ireland : the Down Survey' (p.20-30). - ISBN 0-906921-05-8 ['IM Bibliogr.', 1988, vol. 40, entry no. 88:40(183)] John H. Andrews is retired Professor of Geography, Trinity College, Dublin, and (still) a leading authority on Irish mapping and of maps of Ireland (not necessarily the same thing). Yours sincerely Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG; ex-Compiler of 'Imago Mundi Bibliography') f.herbert@rgs.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Deborah Taylor-Pearce Sent: 26 August 2005 05:36 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Survey of India & Petty's maps Nick, > Does Petty's map survive today? If > so where? Sorry, but I have no idea. Not being a trained cartographic historian, I haven't paid much attention to such matters in the past when I've been doing my research. (Needless to say, that has now changed! ;-) So I'll keep an eye out from now on for any further information on this front. But surely there was more than one set of originals? > Richard Jones, Viscount Ranelagh was a > thoroughly bad character, who spent his > entire life diverting funds from > government sources into his own pocket. I'm assuming that you are here referring to the third Viscount Ranelagh, nephew of Robert Boyle and son of Boyle's beloved sister, Katherine, a great friend of John Milton, whom she had tutor young Richard in Greek and Latin. I didn't know this about Jones, who has been described as "a spendthrift who succeeded in being expelled from the House of Commons (although his reputation rests more pleasantly with posterity, since he built Chelsea House and laid out Ranelagh Gardens)." Presumably, Irish rents paid for all this, and a great deal more, since the Boyle family had been profiting from their Irish properties for many years by then. > If any body knows were I can locate > more on Petty's maps and there use, > I would be fascinated. Petty's _Hiberniae delineatio quoad hactenus licuit, perfectissima studio Guilielmi Petty Eq: aurati_, issued "Cum Privilegio Regis," does not give a date or an engraver on its cover title (basically a table of contents). Nothing else is included in the portfolio, which consists of 2 leaves and 36 maps (some folded). I suspect that the maps included in Petty's _Hiberniae_ were also engraved by Lamb, but I haven't actually compared the 2 1685 titles, so I really don't know about this. I do know that Lamb claimed his 1685 _A Geographicall Description of ye Kingdom of Ireland_ was "Corrected & amended by the advice & assistance of severall able artists, late inhabitants of that kingdom." so one might expect there to be differences between the printed maps of 1685 and Petty's originals, as drawn up in the 1650s. I also know that the indefatigable Robert Hooke had a hand in the project. Lamb and Hooke worked closely together on several mapping projects in the 1670s. And there is mention of Hooke's copying some of Petty's work in a diary entry for 13 Oct. 1678: "... Coppy Sir W. Petty's Improvement of Ireland. Haak. Jonathans. I gave Dr. Wood Sir W. Petty's paper, he lent me Sir W. Petty's _Politicall Arithmetick_...." (Incidentally, Hooke here refers to the same Robert Wood who served as "Accountant General of Ireland" and ferried documents to Petty while in Ireland. I've been working on Robert Wood for several years now -- specifically, his design of a graphical almanac, or "hieroglyphick of the year"; there's a preview at